33 minutes ago, DellyPilot said:

They are quite a big bigger relative to the plane and further forward but I agree its not impossible to make this work.. but as has been shown they really messed it up.

This is something Boeing really have to reflect on, I never thought I would say it but I feel safer in an Airbus. It has this built in from the ground up not patched on like an old bandage. 

I can’t say I say I feel safer on Airbus, but what I do think is Boeing has become content with “good enough” as opposed to being the best. It’s also why I said earlier that I think a software patch is insufficient, a major management shakeup is in order. As others alluded to earlier, I think it’s the plague of beancounters. They have as many orders and they can fill in the narrow body segment, so how do you make more money? Raise prices, or cut costs...but the last thing beancounters want is the expense of a clean sheet design. Why bother...

9 minutes ago, IUBrian said:

It’s also why I said earlier that I think a software patch is insufficient, a major management shakeup is in order. As others alluded to earlier, I think it’s the plague of beancounters.

The USAF is not pleased with them either.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/air-force-wont-accept-any-more-boeing-tankers-until-manufacturing-process-is-cleaned-up/

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/fbi-joining-criminal-investigation-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max/

 

6 hours ago, DellyPilot said:

 It has this built in from the ground up not patched on like an old bandage. 

This is going to be a problem for boeing as airline pax are not going to want to fly on a patched up bandage and as i keep saying summer is round the corner.  You can only cancel, switch, Subcontact and wet lease flights for so long.

The technical knowledge on here is outstanding, I've been blown away with it. 

Alas  I've zero technical knowledge or experience but a wealth of airline operational and commercial experience, and if this drags out more than 6 months the airlines are going to really feel it in many ways. 

The 787 engine issue I've had has been difficult but nothing like grounding a fleet which Is what this is. 

Nearly all Airlines normally loose money or at best break even in the winter and make their profit in the summer. This is going to hit sales as If I had a family I wouldn't take them on a max this summer for my holidays, alot of customer's are going to think Screw that. 

Edited March 22, 20197 yr by tooting

12 hours ago, goates said:

Thanks, forgot to mention Boeing's reason to not starting from scratch. Airlines liked cheap training and economics, and Boeing liked the cheaper and faster certification process.

The reason everything happened the way it did was because of Southwest. This plane was prompted by SWA. The restrictions on differences was dictated by SWA. Even proposed improvements boeing had designed for the max, got nixed by SWA. All in the interest of keeping things the way SWA wanted.

The patch is almost out. The bulletin to swa pilots that just came out basically says the mcas will take from both aoa sensors, cutoff if there is a disagree, limit activation occurences, limit the rate of trimming, and limit the extent of trimming. The reason mcas was implemented, as explained by swa, is that engine placement and greater thrust had made stall recovery difficult enough to require a stick pusher. However, that would have required sim training, so the mcas function was developed instead in order to avoid that.

7 minutes ago, KevinAu said:

However, that would have required sim training, so the mcas function was developed instead in order to avoid that.

Sorry for sounding stupid here, the software updates isn't going to need recall to sim loe training for the crews?? 

Edited March 22, 20197 yr by tooting

Not a good sign for Boeing.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/22/indonesian-airline-garuda-cancels-order-for-49-boeing-737-max-8-jets

No. The whole point of the 737 line from the 300 to the max is to not require any new training. When the max came out, the pilots only got a bulletin for training. Now, the additional training they are required to get has been upped to a cbt module worth 1 hour pay. Sim training is out of the question as there are barely any max sims out there.

Watching National Geographic report on the Qantas Flight 72 incident last night where the software (I consider software to be the same as robots) on the Airbus A330 went bonkers and suddenly put the aircraft into an uncontrollable dive.  Then the aircraft 'robot' gave control back to the pilot for a second and he was able to bring it out of the dive but, suddenly the aircraft was put into a dive again.  The pilot tried to take control but the aircraft software/robot would not allow it and the pilot finally stated, "I'm not in control of this plane".  Many passengers were seriously injured and many seemed to be floating as if in aircraft used to prepare Astronauts for space travel.  Simultaneously, the aircraft lights were showing stall and overspeed warnings at the same time.  Appears Airbus was in front of Boeing by placing software in their aircraft to take control if there was a stall or other anomaly (my assumption but most likely Boeing is out front and Airbus was trying to replicate the software for their flights).  Fortunately, the American Pilot, a former US Navy Fighter Pilot, was able to safely return to the airport in Australia and land but it was a scary ordeal as the pilot never knew if and when the robot would suddenly take control and put the aircraft into an uncontrollable dive again, even on final approach.  More details of this incident are at the following link - https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/terror-on-flight-qf72-im-not-in-control-of-this-plane/news-story/1de13e8591fa845045f52ff4387cf98b.  There are many more reports about this crash via Google but wanted to bring this to the attention of all who are trying to blame Boeing for the Max8 crashes and making me believe only Boeing 737 Max8's are dangerous and everything made by Airbus is perfect and there are no dangers.  Personally I worry about flying anymore as computer technology is taking over more and more and, when a robot takes over the aircraft from the pilots, then you never know exactly what is going to happen or whether the pilot is going to get the aircraft back from the robot who seems confused.

Yeah, electronics and softwares can fails, I know that (I am an electronic service rep.). All depends of how the software or electronic design has been made. Do they have enough backup circuits or programs ready to take over the defect ? Sure, but sometime, something non expected happens.  In the sim I prefer Boeing over Airbus, because I feel like I have more control of the airplane. I hope Boeing will not adds more automation than it needs on their planes.

Mike

Talk about Lame....https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/22/us/max-8-boeing-self-administered-courses-lion-air-ethiopian-airlines-intl/index.html

19 hours ago, DellyPilot said:

It shouldn't be flying, the first and only thing I have ever thanked Trump for.

I don't believe Trump is the person you want to be thanking. He was actually a big part of the problem to begin with.

6 hours ago, Jim Young said:

Watching National Geographic report on the Qantas Flight 72 incident last night where the software (I consider software to be the same as robots) on the Airbus A330 went bonkers and suddenly put the aircraft into an uncontrollable dive. 

11 years ago. Airbus have been on that difficult journey but the plane is built from the ground up with automation, there are 5 backup systems, this MAX has 1 input AoA. Boeing are 15 years behind Airbus on the design philosophy. This is what makes it dangerous.

6 hours ago, Jim Young said:

There are many more reports about this crash via Google but wanted to bring this to the attention of all who are trying to blame Boeing for the Max8 crashes and making me believe only Boeing 737 Max8's are dangerous and everything made by Airbus is perfect and there are no dangers

Strawman. No one said any of that and actually QF72 didn't crash. Point is Airbus rectified this issue and it hasn't happened since.

This is not Airbus > Boeing, I love flying both planes in the sim and appreciate both ideologies but this is a worrying situation for Boeing, they are playing catch up and trying to retro-fit automation on a AC based on a manual flight system to ensure its even flyable!. Why, because its cheaper to not retrain pilots on a new Type. Wow that's a bad look for the public and orders are already being cancelled. I would rather fly any plane in the world over a MAX.

My old man flew 320s and 737s and I can tell you the stories from the 737 are pretty terrifying, sudden uncontrolled 10000ft nose dives and the most famous the series of unexplained Rudder Hard Over crashes due to a flaw in its rudder actuator which caused it to suddenly apply full rudder 😕 Not automation or software related.

Automation/software (not the same as robots btw) has made aviation far far safer and its here to stay... as youre into Air Crash Investigation check out the 737 Rudder Hard Over episode. This used to be on the news all the time back then.

Or for a less dramatic account start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_585 

 

Edited March 22, 20197 yr by Jim Young
Removed political comments/assumptions that were also off-topic.

22 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

My respect for Boeing that I have had for years, has disappeared after this debacle. 

Investigation has not even been completed and you come up with a conclusion like this?  Comments like this without the facts does not make sense.  If you saw my post above about a similar incident with Airbus, you should also be losing respect for them too (maybe you already have).

1 hour ago, DellyPilot said:

This is not Airbus > Boeing, I love flying both planes

You may not think this is an issue between Boeing/Airbus but reading many comments in this topic say otherwise.  We just have to keep the topic on track.  The fact that Lion Air and Ethiopia Airlines did not buy AOA safety features for the aircraft says a lot.