4 hours ago, Mace said:

Why was it being ferried to Victorville?  Storage?  Or do they do maintenance there as well?

Apparently Southwest is storing their Max inventory at Victorville until they are pulled back into service, according to the article which I failed to link. 

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/03/26/american-airlines-cancelling-90-flights-daily-due-to-737-max-grounding/

Ouch...

44 minutes ago, tooting said:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/03/26/american-airlines-cancelling-90-flights-daily-due-to-737-max-grounding/

Ouch...

Ouch indeed, and all 390 planes grounded until at least May. Assuming on average 2 sectors a day (maybe more) it is roughly

390 x 2 x 60 = 46,800 flights!

Lost revenue must be hundreds of millions at least.

1 hour ago, DellyPilot said:

Ouch indeed, and all 390 planes grounded until at least May. Assuming on average 2 sectors a day (maybe more) it is roughly

390 x 2 x 60 = 46,800 flights!

Lost revenue must be hundreds of millions at least.

Wait until they see what they will lose in the lawsuits that are sure to be filed by the crash victims and airlines. 

So did I miss something?  Seems to me the crashes are still under investigation.  Boeing has a serious problem.  That goes without saying.  But at my age, I don't buy one version of a story either.  Especially when I find articles stating that the FO only had 200 hours total flight experience. (Which I want to doubt that seriously, as it's not even enough time to certify IFR let alone ATP. But stranger things have happened) The Captain had missed simulator training and that the exact same aircraft required a third, off-duty pilot to assist the on-duty flight crew on the previous flight.  (Why would the plane be allowed to fly the next day if a crew had to ask a 3rd off-duty pilot to assist? Wouldn't that indicate a serious problem with either the aircraft or the flight crews ability to control it?) Frankly, that makes me take the same look at the air lines operating the Max 8, that I give Boeing for the problems with the Max 8.   Bottom line.  Both airlines and Boeing are under serious legal and political pressure and the media attention is doing serious damage to everyone involved. Their goal right now is probably the same as anyone else's would be in a similar situation.  Mitigate the damage, clean up the mess, restore confidence and most importantly make sure the company isn't destroyed by the incidents.  Everyone's paycheck depends on it! (That is tens of thousands of somebody's in multiple countries! Not to mention everyone that supplies/supports/contracts with those companies as well.) Remember, Boeing doesn't build every single part.  Neither does Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, Dornier, Piper, Cessna.  You get the idea. They just design, construct and sell.  The material was purchased from other businesses. Just like the airlines contract for cleaning, training, and FUEL! Just to name a few. My point, is that the lessons here, in financial terms are going to translate all the way to the janitors. 

But here is the questions on my mind that maybe someone can help me out with.   How many Max 8's have logged a flight?  From development to the most recent I heard of, which was Southwest shuttling their Max 8's to California for storage.  (Long or short term?  I have seen articles claiming each)  Out of all of those flights, how many experienced a problem?  What was the problem? How was the problem managed? How many crashed?  On the last I only know of 2.  Correct me please, if I am wrong on that total.   I have seen reporting that their were numerous complaints about the MCAS.  Point noted. But I find it suspicious that other flight crews would have a problem with it, report it and manage to get back to the surface of the earth safely.  Two did not.  What was the difference? Exactly.  The only things that come to my mind is training & experience, altitude, weather and for a lack of better terms. Acts of God. (things unexplained but well beyond anyone's reasonable ability to predict, control or mitigate) 

As for the Law.   Is there a country that does not recognize that the Captain of a ship (Sea or Air) holds the ultimate responsibility for the safety of their ship? The ultimate burden of the left seat and four stripes. (in most uniform cases)  If their was even 1 thing in question, the employer of said Captain will be included in any wrongful death suite. (At least within U.S. Jurisdiction & there are far too numerous examples to cite)  

This whole thing is a mess.  A serious blow to the aviation community.  Reputations, respect, trust and revenue are taking a hit.  I seriously hope the findings are released (even if it's embarrassing) so everyone serious about flight can learn from it, improve, and move forward.

7 hours ago, 59Line said:

What was the difference? Exactly.  The only things that come to my mind is training & experience, altitude, weather and for a lack of better terms Acts of God. (things unexplained but well beyond anyone's reasonable ability to predict, control or mitigate) 

Sorry but you have a lot of reading to catch up on, your guesses are way off. 

Try reading this thread from the start where the details have been discussed and if that doesn't clear things up keep googling, for a start you could look at the changes that Boeing announced yesterday. The details are out there.

10 hours ago, 59Line said:

So did I miss something? 

Seems like you didn't understand many of the posts on this thread. ????

Edited March 28, 20197 yr by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!!

Well now that was rich!  I understood the posts perfectly.  Several had good points that I hadn't heard or considered.  The article links had some interesting points of view as well.  Livened up the discussion at work. (Cargo Logistics) So, my sincere apologies for my apparent faux pas in even wondering what if any other factors were or could be involved in the loss life and equipment.  As every accident we have had usually included more than just equipement failure.  Fatigue and inattention rounding out the top 2 added factors with lack of training poping it's ugly head into the picture occasionally as well.  The situation with the Max 8's was primed for these events so is it really that much an issue to ponder what exactly, evidence wise tipped the balance into disasters favor? Anything further than what has been discussed to date.  Knowing my own tendencies, I probably wrote the post in haste and wasn't clear. That's on me and In future I will avoid that. Threegreen mentioned an article he couldn't find about the unusual hurried pace at Boeing and the FAA surrounding the Max 8.  That sounded interesting as well.  If they remember I would like to know where to find it. 

Happy Landings.

  

Bottom line is that AVSIM appreciates your input into the conversation.  A civilized conversation of a two tragedies that have yet been fully investigated.  I have said much of what you have stated and some on this conversation don't really understand what I was trying to convey.  Like you rightly stated, the investigation has not been completed but 'they' hate what Boeing did and now they have lost their respect.  But they still like Boeing no matter what.  They are just unhappy what they did and how they did it.  This is the decision whether Boeing is found guilty or not guilty.  But they still like Boeing no matter what...  I hope you now understand.

I did find a small fault in your conversation though.  You stated the investigation had not been completed but you seemed to be blaming Boeing and "seriously hope the findings are released (even if it's embarrassing) so everyone serious about flight can learn from it, improve, and move forward."  You should know from a link I provided above, Airbus had the same issues a lot earlier than the Max8 and were found guilty and nothing happened to them.  It was hoped though that others would learn from their mistakes.  Plus the countries that bought the aircraft from Boeing decided not to buy two safety features that were related in these crashes.  Fault of Boeing?  The Boeing 737 has been out for many years and then Boeing releases another version with slight changes to help the pilots.  Can't say anything more.  Investigation not complete.

Welcome to AVSIM and hope you continue to communicate in the forums as any input is welcomed!

Jim

As of January of this year,  350 737 Max 8 have been built and were flying. Statistically  the loss of 2 even within a short period of time  is not extremely significant. 

However,  the loss of so many souls is. This is a definite tragedy and has a very far reaching impact on  a corporate,  industry,  and personal level. I'm sure it will take a lengthy recovery period for all. 

1 hour ago, 59Line said:

Threegreen mentioned an article he couldn't find about the unusual hurried pace at Boeing and the FAA surrounding the Max 8.  That sounded interesting as well.  If they remember I would like to know where to find it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/business/boeing-737-max-crash.html

Interesting reading. https://www.vox.com/business-and-finance/2019/3/29/18281270/737-max-faa-scandal-explained

The BIG problem comes after the MCAS activates. First up it has to be recognised as an MCAS event. Looking at the EICAS caution messages wont be that helpful. IAS, ALT and ELEV DIFF FEEL DISAGREE messages would not immediately be associated with an AoA sensor issue....more likely pitot static. The trim wheel whirring is normal on a 737 with the STS system. The AP would most likely disengage if not manually disconnected. Then comes the really awkward and potentially fatal part. The stab trim can be stopped by counter trim switch movement. When released if the MCAS event is still active the forward stab trim will continue. With this level of force exerted on the control column the AP will not be able to be engaged with both it and the  manual stab trim system needing the control column loading to be offloaded to work (it also needs many cranks to have an effect due to very low grearing). Who would have the courage to unload the elevator to do that when so close to the ground? The 737 stab is extremely powerful and the elevators are comparatively small. The forces needed to pull back on the control column would be huge. Eventually the elevators would lose out to the stab and we know what happens after that.

For the other MCAS events that have been experienced by other crews they may have been fortunate to either have been in a situation whereby they had a reduced workload (and time to analyse), and could pick up on the situation, or may have had an intermittent AoA issue or other trigger that only made the MCAS operative for a short period of time.

 

 

The only other crew that has experienced the mcas problem besides the mishap crews was the LionAir crew from the flight before the crash. None of the asap/asrs reports that were made public had anything to do with mcas. The ‘reports’ of a max descending towards the ground after autopilot engagement was actually one incident with two reports (capt and fo). And it was not an mcas type event, as mcas only operates with autopilot off. The other reports are various pilots complaining of how little they knew about the plane while operating it.

https://news.sky.com/story/tui-issues-profit-warning-on-eur200m-boeing-plane-hit-11677897

The amb, investors, stakeholders and shareholders wont take that sitting down. I'd be quite worried if I was boeing. 200 million euros is a hell of a lot of money. 

Edited March 30, 20197 yr by tooting