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tamsini

Is this where we're headed?

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Hello all, reading lots of topics about the future of flight simulation, especially with MSF2020 and the possible subscription costs.

I'm wondering if more developers will be taking this route. And now with the announcement of Parallel 42's the Skypark charging 14.99AUD per month for their product, it seems that's where we're headed. Although a lot of us do spend quite a bit on quality addons, this approach makes me a little nervous.

True, we already have Navigraph charts and NAV subscriptions, but these seem to be more of much-needed navigational aid updates.

Is it just me or does anyone else have the same concerns?

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Mario Di Lauro

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Yes, businesses prefer this type of model as it allows them to forecast sales easily and allocate resources based on what the product is doing. If only Frank and Karen are playing in the SkyPark, the can release a near beta release and turn it off quickly if it does not succeed. If it succeeds, they can allocate more developers towards it and expanding the product, or cash out and pay off their Benz and take their private jets down to Turks and Caicos that some folks here think developers do base on all these outrageous rates they charge. 

Of course, there is the old gym membership philosophy in which most people just keep paying in case someday they will get to the gym but never use the resource.  

Also, be on the lookout for a microtransaction near you! You want that Fed-EX livery for that C208, drop a buck or two. Which, if there was an easy way to pay them, I would support. 

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Remember, there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there by people not knowing what things like game pass is.

No where have Microsoft said that flight simulator will be subscription only.

Yes, it will be available via game pass which allows access to a library of games. The E3 presentation said it will be available through games pass because they were using it as an example title during the launch of game pass for pc. It doesn't mean you can't buy those games as stand alone titles though and until they state that flight simulator will only be available via monthly subscription(which no Xbox title is) then everyone needs to stop worrying.

Basically lots of scaremongering by people too stubborn or lazy to do any research into something they perceive as new.

Personally I don't have an issue with subscription but then I subscribe to Netflix, Amazon, prepar3d developer, Xbox live, navigraph and probably a few other things I can't remember right now.

Chris

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Owner, Fulcrum Simulator Controls.

www.fulcrumsim.com

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18 minutes ago, tutmeister said:

No where have Microsoft said that flight simulator will be subscription only.

Basically lots of scaremongering by people too stubborn or lazy to do any research into something they perceive as new.

I agree 100 pct with item one, but only partially with item two. sometimes such threads are posted by trolls, and I am not calling the OP one or you, but trolling is where web rumors originate.  There is a lot of angst in the sim world with Microsoft and its resources getting back into the sim game, not necessarily from the sim makers, but from the add on community which sometimes worry that they will lose on their investment. 

I do not believe they will, from the short video I have seen I feel Microsoft, like Lockheed Martin, and Xplane11, and the other sim whose name I cannot recall but is number four in popularity I believe, I feel Microsoft will include Developers like Carenado, Just Flight and some more in their new sim.  They may exclude other developers, which is where I think these rumors originate from, so those devs will have to circle their wagons and do what they do best--surprise us. 

I am a champion of the late John Nash's game theory (sadly he and his wife were killed in an NYC taxi accident, like I almost was when a taxi driver went into road rage--it is a bit crazy there because as they said in Men in Black, lots of people from outer space gather in NYC and I have been there too, so I include myself in that "spacy" bunch being politically correct).  John Nash's game theory based on 'win-win' is used in big business and the programs they practice, like Agile, Six Sigma, Seven Habits and so on (I have been certified in those three and more, so much so I psychobabble at times).

So to circle back to your point, I know you are trying to help, I just wanted to remind you that here you are preaching to the choir, but not all birds have flown from the nest yet, they are still learning our hobby.

John

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My question was not aimed at the new MSF2020 (I keep trying to remember myself that certain words and phrases are interpreted a multitude of ways by different people) but rather towards third-party developers such as Parallel 42. 

Best if I simply wait to see what happens.


Mario Di Lauro

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To the OP's question "Is this where we're heading" my answer for me, will be No. Meaning I'm not gonna buy something for a "game" with a monthly subscibtion. That''s also one of the reasons I'm not using Navigraph, as long as there's free alternatives out there (Chartfox) that does a lot of the things that ie. Navigraph does. If I'm gonna invest in a simulator or addons, being a scenery, aircraft or utility, I wanna pay a onetime fee and know it's "mine" and if they put out updates, it's my choise if I wanna pay addional for that. 

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Jorn Lundtoft

I don't always stop and look at airplanes.........Oh wait, Yes I do.

 

 

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John it is a pet peeve of mine and sadly a reflection of today's attitudes. This is why I stated it like I did.

Too many people post without knowing all the facts. It is an old viewpoint but I believe that if you are going to post something in public you should do your research.

It isn't hard to read the press releases. I watched the original trailer and then watched the actual stage presentation on YouTube to get the context of it. By doing so I learned more than a person would just by watching the trailer.

This attitude to life isn't just to do with our hobby. I firmly believe that if you are going to state something as fact then you need to do some reading. This goes for newbies as well as old salts! Unfortunately too much snap judgement takes place these days.

To the op, you are right to point out that you didn't necessarily mean just the new simulator. It is easy to get blinkered.

I think in the short to medium term, Microsoft games will be available as stand alone purchases.

Unfortunately in the longer term I suspect a lot of stuff will go subscription whether we like it or not.

Chris

 


Owner, Fulcrum Simulator Controls.

www.fulcrumsim.com

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It will be interesting to see how SkyPark fairs... I love the UI, but if all it is another FSEconomy or Air Hauler, I doubt I will keep paying the monthly fees. 

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7 minutes ago, kowen said:

It will be interesting to see how SkyPark fairs... I love the UI, but if all it is another FSEconomy or Air Hauler, I doubt I will keep paying the monthly fees. 

A problem for me with SkyPark, is likely what will make some people actually enjoy it; the persistent world and the real-time stuff related to that. It has some attractions certainly, but one of the things which gives it that realism is the deadlines.

I like the flexibility of being able to dip into Air Hauler 2 when I'm in the mood, but I also want AH2 to be able to 'run itself and tick over' with A.I. personnel when I've other things I'd prefer to do, or when I'm just too busy with real life. I'm sure some people will love what SkyPark has to offer, but for me it's too close to becoming an actual job, and I've already got one of those at the airport working on the planes sorting out cargo and stuff. I don't want to come home and have to start doing that at my house as well unless I'm in the mood to do so lol.

Anyway, I wish then luck with it.

With regard to subscriptions, I don't mind the idea of these so long as they're offering what I want and it is a reasonable price which compares favourably with other models they could have gone for. With regard to MS's new flight sim, I would base my appraisal of its value upon what has gone before and the equivalent cost of that as a division.

MS used to bring out a new version of FS every two years approximately (actually a bit less I think), and I would generally buy that new version on day one of release. If there were (as was sometimes the case) two versions of it, a fancy 'pro/deluxe' version and a 'standard' version, I would always go for the fancier and more expensive version, which was if I recall correctly, somewhere around the £60 mark price-wise. Added to that was of course much more expense in the form of many software add-ons which were sometimes compatible with newer versions of the sim in which case one didn't have to buy a new version of that add-on, or sometimes not. So it's not as if we've been buying a DVD of flight sim in years past and then never spending a dime for another two years.

Then there's the cost of hardware which would occasionally wear out, computer upgrades, new software add-ons and so forth, which don't relate directly to the cost of the base sim, but which are certainly more lucrative than selling the base simulation itself, so you can understand why MS were a bit miffed about missing out on that and why they've always wanted a rolling revenue model. I should imagine it was a source of annoyance for MS to be effectively the 'enabler' which allowed TPDs to exist, but found themselves unable to profit from that status quo, which is why I always thought they should have got their own add-on development team together, separate from the ACES team as they would have then had a revenue source which could have been able to make some of the best stuff by virtue of being privy to more information down the line than TPDs would have.

So in principle I've absolutely no objection to a subscription model, in fact it might even be better since it'd be a contract with the developer to which they too would be committed in the sense of having to keep improving content. You only have to look at something like World of Warcraft, the online RPG, to see that its developers literally had to keep bringing out new expansion content regularly in order to keep people subscribed. Other online games and sims have gone with micro-transactions and such, which is okay so long as it is offering something you want.

Having said that, one does have to be careful to keep a lid on such subscriptions. When you pay 30 quid for a movie and TV channel subscription,  8 quid for Prime,  ten quid for this, and another ten quid for that and so on, it's not hard to look at your bank account and find you've spent rather a lot of money on all that stuff every month.

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Alan Bradbury

Check out my youtube flight sim videos: Here

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Im not concerned in general and I subscribe to lots of things where I feel the value is fair. For the same or less money than skypark I get lightroom and photoshop, or Spotify, or Netflix, or amazon prime, or the origin vault, or ms game pass. Skypark is abysmal value for money in comparison to any of those. 

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I’m also one who will not pay a subscription fee for a game. I don’t like the fact that I might (and most do) pay hundreds of dollars for something with a subscription over time and then one day cancel the subscription and not have access to that any longer. 

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Kyle

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There is no information at all about the economic model for this new MSFS, for either the end-users or 3rd party add-on developers.

I'll just toss this out there, a point I made in the MSFS forum: 

The problem MS had in the past, was releasing a flight sim every few years with a one-time fixed cost for the sim. As an open system, MS couldn't capture the profit of all the 3rd party add-ons. And those are necessary for a healthy flight sim, which MS found out with the MS Flight fiasco.

A subscription model would allow MS the funds to continue development of the base platform, and not care about what add-on developers were making off the core platform.

Lockheed Martin and Laminar Research are in a different position, since both companies are funded from projects outside the home PC sim product. But MS has to make it worth the cost of keeping the sim moving forward as a commercial "game." Subscription is one way to do that. No idea if that's what they're planning just wild guesses like everyone else here.

 


Primary sim is X-Plane 11 on Windows 10
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On 6/22/2019 at 7:52 AM, tutmeister said:

No where have Microsoft said that flight simulator will be subscription only.

 

I might be speculating but knowing MS they will milk this for all it's worth. I'm predicting the following pay model just like Orbx or MegaScenery do with regions, you will have to pay to 'unlock' regions to fly in.


Ryzen 2600x, Noctua U12A, 32Gb Vengence @3200MHz, Sapphire Pulse 5700xt, P3D on WD Black SN750 NVMe SSD

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1 hour ago, FPStewy said:

I might be speculating but knowing MS they will milk this for all it's worth. I'm predicting the following pay model just like Orbx or MegaScenery do with regions, you will have to pay to 'unlock' regions to fly in.

Your guess is as good as any. However, you might be more on target than many in this topic.

Purchase of regions and aircraft was the Microsoft Flight model. I feel this would have worked but they bailed on it too soon.

American Truck simulator and European Truck simulator along with DCS have this same economic model and they seem to be getting along fine.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 


Thank you.

Rick

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