1 minute ago, robert young said:

I think I saw a video yesterday or the day before showing a control sensitivity curve menu, unless I was dreaming.

you can only move the slider at the bottom, you can't actually change the curve.

2 minutes ago, robert young said:

I think I saw a video yesterday or the day before showing a control sensitivity curve menu, unless I was dreaming.

The point he was making and correct me if I am wrong the curve windows are there and will at some point work but not ATM

43 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

DCS is a good e.g, fly a F-18 on default setting and....well GL, set up the axis/curves and BANG and totally different aircraft.

Yup, exactly. The MiG-29 in DCS is pretty much unflyable until you faff about with your joystick curves, without doing that, it's ridiculously pitch sensitive to the point where any attempt to land the thing has a really good chance of ending up in a cartwheeling fireball. And the MiG is a payware add-on.

But tweak those elevator axis curves and screeeetch:

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by Chock

12 minutes ago, robert young said:

I don't understand why the very essence of a flight simulation (ie FLIGHT) can only be achieved by 3rd parties. It is after all a FLIGHT Simulator!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly!.

@All those saying that Default Aircraft are just that. ( implying crippled, dumbed down, etc. IMO a bit derogatory)

I know this seems to be the "expected standard" since eons ago in the Flight Sim World. but shouldn't we expect a higher standard on those default airplanes? 

Many here and there seem to be just expecting 3PD to deliver almost "true-to-life" addon airplanes, and ditch default ones.
Don't get me wrong; I will surely buy the upcoming  A2A Aerostar 600, but would love to have "Flight Simulation" standard with default aircraft.

Can´t say more, sorry.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Chock said:

it's ridiculously pitch sensitive to the point where any attempt to land the thing has a really good chance of ending up in a cartwheeling fireball.

But tweak those elevator axis curves and:

...and here is another good point I'd like to make which relates to the pitch stability argument in this thread.

When it comes to those sorts of nuances in flight dynamics that aren't really measured by numbers, but are judged instead as behavior or feel, it is very often not possible to get the wanted outcome or behavior in cases like this without "fudging" the actual numbers being input into a flight file.

While an expert may know that those numbers are fudged and not realistic and may point to a deficit in the sims physics, the majority of users don't care as long as they can adjust something to still be able to get their desired result/behavior...even if what they are adjusting (such as hardware sensitivity) shouldn't really need to be done in the first place (in a perfect world where the inherit physics were done just right).

This, I think, is how Robert's point regarding pitch stability can be seen here in this thread. Forgetting a moment about right or wrong... he is arguing about a possible deficit in the physics numbers, while many others are saying in a nutshell that it's ok because you can just adjust this or that with your hardware to make up for it and get a similar result, so who cares? Robert can end up being right about the physics but as long as there's an easy workaround folks won't care much about it.

I'm not going to bother injecting my opinion about which way of thinking is correct or not, as that's a whole other can of worms to be opened 🙄

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by hangar

10 minutes ago, RamonB said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly!.

@All those saying that Default Aircraft are just that. ( implying crippled, dumbed down, etc. IMO a bit derogatory)

I know this seems to be the "expected standard" since eons ago in the Flight Sim World. but shouldn't we expect a higher standard on those default airplanes? 

Many here and there seem to be just expecting 3PD to deliver almost "true-to-life" addon airplanes, and ditch default ones.
Don't get me wrong; I will surely buy the upcoming  A2A Aerostar 600, but would love to have "Flight Simulation" standard with default aircraft.

Can´t say more, sorry.

I think it boils down to the fact asobo have a limited amount of time and resources available to develop a product for what I assume is a pre determined release date. worrying about minute details of certain aircraft that a third party developer can invest much more time into since they are creating one aircraft and not an entire foundation so to speak is sort of futile since it will likely be done better anyways. That being said, hopefully they continue to add features to the included aircraft after release.

I find the technical discussions here also interesting.

It`s an interesting read of Robert Young posts and others.

Concering the oscillations in pitch directions. I have not much of an idea, I remember them from FSX, but I never percieved them as beeing wrong. Of course that was just a feeling, I made my thoughts a bit on it and uploaded a picture on this, its actually basic stuff, but somehow oscillations should be always present (OK R. Young wrote that new aircraft almost have none).

As the ailerons move up, air gets compressed on the other side and creates a movement in the opposite direction. But that amount of oscillation should depend on how fast the ailerons are moved to neutral position. Newer airplanes have likely less oscillation, as development moves on, but I guess it is like a car. If it is a front wheeler, it tends to understeering, no matter how much technologically it is advanced.

 

The question is basically am I right or wrong?

To me I would only expect the Airbus to have pitch stability based on it's control laws like how Robert is describing. 

6 minutes ago, hangar said:

...and here is another good point I'd like to make which relates to the pitch stability argument in this thread.

When it comes to those sorts of nuances in flight dynamics that aren't really measured by numbers, but are judged instead as behavior or feel, it is very often not possible to get the wanted outcome or behavior in cases like this without "fudging" the actual numbers being input into a flight file.

In the case of that MiG-29 in DCS, for tweaking it, I went to the trouble of buying and reading the NATO 496-page pilot's notes for the MiG-29, which they produced when the Luftwaffe inherited East-German MiGs after the unification of Germany and many pilots were doing dissimilar ACMs with F-16s.

The book actually cost me more than the DCS add-on, but it was worth it to make sure I had thing as right as I could get it based on watching a lot of cockpit videos of landing and maneuvers, and reading up on how all the flight control systems worked. But in the end, it ultimately came down to me having it behave how I personally thought it felt right in the sim with my HOTAS stick.

@BigDee Totally right. The issue we're discussing is ... with what response time and what acceleration does a 50 ton airplane react with a visible movement to that control surface change? In some videos it seems a bit light weighted. If you'd move your joystick back and forth within a second ... would a 50 ton plane even visibly react? 

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by RudyB24
50 tons, not 500

10 minutes ago, Chock said:

it ultimately came down to me having it behave how I personally thought it felt right in the sim with my HOTAS stick.

...and there it is

...and I end up needing to do the same much of the time for myself and my own stock of aircraft.

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by hangar

Talking about hotas sticks, I was gonna buy a new thrustmaster warthog today, but they were out 😞 Won't get a new stock untill later in september. Funny enough, there doesn't seem to be a single thrustmaster warthog (stick and throttle combined) left in all stores in Norway... 

Someone has been making preparations for MSFS launch I see 😄

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by Andreas Stangenes

49 minutes ago, BigDee said:

I find the technical discussions here also interesting.

I honestly think the pitching oscillation that was seen in the caravan on landing as an example is just PIO due to lack of pilot experience and really over sensitive stick settings...Do we even know if he had the plane trimmed correctly??? Unless someone can share/re-share other more concrete examples of it happening in the sim that I perhaps missed? I think people are making too big a deal out of it, as I said before too many variables to make a judgement from that one video... We will all see for ourselves how things work with proper setup soon enough.

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

well the thing that people might know  and I hope this is not NDA breaking comments but. The A320 is very stable as long as you don't press the AP button. The second you do, it start wobbling from left to right and up and down like it's possessed. It's even worst on the 7474-8. You might have seen that on the YT video. If you press FLC, the plane will nosedive on you. I hope this gives you an insight of where the problem is. It's not the flight dynamics. It's the avionics and mostly the auto-trim that is making these planes look like they want to rock you to death. 

 

(btw all the wobbling is due to AP in all the planes including GA)

Edited August 13, 20205 yr by fogboundturtle

10 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

The A320 is very stable as long as you don't press the AP button. The second you do, it start wobbling from left to right and up and down like it's possessed. It's even worst on the 7474-8. You might have seen that on the YT video. If you press FLC, the plane will nosedive on you. I hope this gives you an insight of where the problem is. It's not the flight dynamics. It's the avionics and mostly the auto-trim that is making these planes look like they want to rock you to death. 

(btw all the wobbling is due to AP in all the planes including GA)

Oh, well that seems like it should be easier to solve than a flight model problem. I doubt the developers think it is working as intended, so it will probably be solved if it already hasn’t. Hopefully before release.