6 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I'm not sure where are getting this information. All airlines obligated to use SID and STAR! They are specifically designed for conjested airspaces. 

They're obligated? Until ATC give as mentioned shortcuts to squeeze in traffic, or direct to waypoints, or extend a downwind leg and so on. Look on flightaware/radar at the tracks and at times (i won't say majority but often) the airplane isnt flying the star exactly according to the charts or programmed FMC. Or anywhere near it. 

 

Have you never watched 'Pushing Tin'? 😜 😉

Edited August 11, 20205 yr by Doug47

7 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I'm not sure where are getting this information. All airlines abligated to use SID and STAR! They are specifically designed for conjested airspaces. 

I don't think they are obligated to use SID/STARs as far as I'm aware.  I might be wrong.  They can deny your request or they can give you what you want or some other agreed upon routing,  This gets to a grey area here.

Second thing (for the purposes of your reply), is ATC instructions ALWAYS trump (no pun intended), any published published procedures, provided there is no risk to safety and the aircraft can comply.

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by Jeff Nielsen

5 hours ago, pmb said:

Indeed. Without going into detail, a lot of alpha/beta testers are highly qualified, most of them higher than me. I would never say the same about most of the YouTubers, although I wouldn't put all of them into the same pot.

Kind regards, Michael

Yes, there are some very experienced pilots on the test team, but very few of them are publishing videos. I agree with the thread starter. Most of the videos are essentially marketing tools for Microsoft, and are largely uncritical. That is not to say they shouldn't be impressed by some of it - I am as impressed as anyone by the scenery and most of the weather.

Compare however with, say, a racing sim. As almost everyone drives a car, the critical faculties present when assessing a racing game are much more detailed and passionately expressed. That is why there is a pecking order of racing sims that almost everyone accepts: rFactor 2 is regarded as the most convincing physics model but the content is lacking and the UI not very good. Project Cars 2 is a visual feast and fair to average handling, while Assetto is generally considered very good in the physics department.

The comments I hear on the vast majority of videos on MSFS 2020 are almost everything EXCEPT how the sim feels and looks to actually fly, with a few rare exceptions. My sources tell me that there are quite a few professional pilot testers who are very critical of the flight modelling, but none none of them are making the hundreds of pre-release videos on YouTube because that is not what they do.

This is, after all, a FLIGHT simulation, not a google earth adaptation, or an impressive weather simulation. It is primarily about FLIGHT. So it is a bit odd that the vast majority of those YT videos mention almost nothing about the actual flying qualities, and nor has anyone done anywhere near a detailed test of yaw, roll, pitch, lift or inertia, let alone climb rates, engine handling, prop physics etc etc. These things are every bit as important as the airports, cities, scenery, clouds, ATC, AI, multiplayer and graphics.

The only few videos I've seen that refer to actual Flight are a mainly ridiculous efforts, for example, telling us how clever it is to take off in a 50 knot wind and travel zero knots in relation to the ground. "That confirms that they've got it right then", the hapless video author says, not realising that this indicates absolutely nothing about the aerodynamic qualities of the sim, while it passed him by that the C152 he "flew" was jiggering around like a paper aeroplane weighing 5 grams in a gale for no rational reason, a "feature" he regarded as somehow to be expected. The level of sheer ignorance in some of these videos is extraordinary, but they do serve a useful purpose in other ways, allowing us to see some really beautiful scenery and some excellent features that I really do think are impressive. But that's as far as it goes.

 

 

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by robert young
typo

4 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

They're obligated? Until ATC give as mentioned shortcuts to squeeze in traffic, or direct to waypoints, or extend a downwind leg and so on. Look on flightaware/radar at the tracks and at times (i won't say majority but often) the airplane isnt flying the star exactly according to the charts or programmed FMC. Or anywhere near it. 

 

Have you never watched 'Pushing Tin'? 😜 😉

Soemtimes ATC may give you deviation due to weather or ammend your flight plan. But it doesn't mean you will be getting vectors every time you fly. They will stick you as it fit them.

I  live and fly in SoCal with three class Bravo airports side to side. SID  and STAR changes every few month to accomidate increased flow and for better traffic handling. 

 

Look at the STAR/SID here and see how many marked "changed"

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KLAX 

Just now, sd_flyer said:

Soemtimes ATC may give you deviation due to weather or ammend your flight plan. But it doesn't mean you will be getting vectors every time you fly. They will stick you as it fit them.

I  live and fly in SoCal with three class Bravo airports side to side. SID  and STAR changes every few month to accomidate increased flow and for better traffic handling. 

 

Look at the STAR/SID here and see how many marked "changed"

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KLAX 

Yes, every facility is a little different and at different times.  I don't think we need a run down of every ARTCC/FIR in the world on this one...lol.  They'll stick to the plan until they 'can't'🤪

9 minutes ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

I don't think they are obligated to use SID/STARs as far as I'm aware.  I might be wrong.  They can deny your request or they can give you what you want or some other agreed upon routing,  This gets to a grey area here.

Second thing (for the purposes of your reply), is ATC instructions ALWAYS trump (no pun intended), any published published procedures, provided there is no risk to safety and the aircraft can comply.

If you fly small airplanes where you can always mark no SID/STAR on your flight plan. In fact, ATC woudn't even expect you fly SID/STAR because most asmaller GA simlply don't have proper RNAV equipment. So yes ATC will vector you around in this case.

For example how many light GA  capable to do RNP approach such as that:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2008/05310RRZ6.PDF

1 minute ago, sd_flyer said:

Soemtimes ATC may give you deviation due to weather or ammend your flight plan. But it doesn't mean you will be getting vectors every time you fly. They will stick you as it fit them.

I  live and fly in SoCal with three class Bravo airports side to side. SID  and STAR changes every few month to accomidate increased flow and for better traffic handling. 

 

Look at the STAR/SID here and see how many marked "changed"

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KLAX 

 

Yes true but I think the previous poster was making the point that at many airports, the SID / STAR may not be flown at times as in the chart or FMC if ATC gives shortcuts in the route or a direct to. 

As Jeff mentioned, not every time and every airpace or every airport. So that makes AI ATC very difficult as it becomes predictable and why some prefer online like VATSIM. Now if they could train the AI ATC to recognize all these things, then it would make it more enjoyable. 

14 hours ago, robert young said:

Yes, there are some very experienced pilots on the test team, but very few of them are publishing videos.

Though I understand what you are saying, and I agree with many of your points, I think it is important to remember that MSFS has not yet released. It is not good practice to review a game that is still in alpha or beta. IGN, which is a media outlet that does A LOT of reviews, have published several videos of MSFS. Some of them are just as silly as the leakers that obviously wouldn't distinguish the carb heater from a jacket hanger. But, when MSFS actually releases, the game is on! The reviews will come. The major outlets that do reviews don't do them untill the game releases. There is still going to be an issue with the mainstream reviewers not having the compentency to actually do a meaningful review for most hardcore simmers or real life pilots. But then again, we have forums and other places we go to for that. 

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

3 minutes ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

Yes, every facility is a little different and at different times.  I don't think we need a run down of every ARTCC/FIR in the world on this one...lol.  They'll stick to the plan until they 'can't'🤪

I can't say for the whole world I fly in USA In my area  ATC stresses follow feeder routes  and asks us to flile  even for instructioral flight, so they can keep an eye on us and squeeze more traffic next to us. As long as you talk to them and comply they happy 

3 hours ago, Will Fly For Cheese said:

The word De-si-mal just cannot be mistaken for anything else. Hence ICAO Convention for ATC.

point - can be easily missed/ mis-heard/ mistaken for something else.

Such as?

2 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

Such as?

Eight?

3 hours ago, Lotharen said:

I've noticed a LOT of people put down a persons flight skill. This disheartens me because I'm not a pilot, never flown an actual plane, just can't afford something like that. Simulators are my savior as it were, without them 'I' would not get to fly, to imagine I can take a trip around the world and visit exotic places. I am sure those same people would chastise my piloting skills, they are sloppy and I often over correct, ect. 

This doesn't mean I'm not trying my best or not taking it 'seriously'. MSFS2020 could breath new life into the sim hobby and spark that flame for new real world pilots.

Try and remember that for those it pertains to.

Thats my 2 cents. 

Don't misunderstand me at all. My reference to pilots being involved relates to being able to give feedback on some very obviously incorrect and unrealistic situations. I have complete understanding for your situation and the joy flight simming brings you. I am a real world pilot - one who has to limit the number of hours he flies because of financial realities and who could never even dream of owning and flying even something like a Seminole, which I really enjoy doing. 

I ain't putting folks like you down, and if I sound that way, please accept my apology. 

3 hours ago, joec63 said:

MSFS is not a replacement for flight and ground school. Never was and it's not now. 

Yet how many questions and comments do you see about the incorporation of SIDs and STARs...

3 hours ago, Farlis said:

ATC can't be that Euro-Centric when it uses the U.S. transition altitute globally. I swear if I have to listen to ATC clear me to 12.000 feet one more time while I'm over Europe...

We can't help it if it makes sense. Flight level seven five? What are you, a U2? 😃

2 hours ago, LHookins said:

And exactly why does this matter?  Even if you're right.

Hook

So why design it for them instead of the person who's going to put a few hundred hours on it a year?