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ChaoticBeauty

September 3rd, 2020 - Development Update

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5 minutes ago, cmpbellsjc said:

Well in all fairness FSX did need two service packs to get it to where it finally finished.

Things did “work” as far as the weather, autopilots and things of that nature, but the community had to put up with the performance issues and install 3rd party vector data for roads, coastlines, etc, as well as 3rd party landclass, ground texture, and cloud texture replacements to make it look better. At least with MSFS we don’t need to do that end of it since the scenery and clouds look good out of the box.

True, but I’d rather have broken scenery that can be fixed later, that waiting on broken auto pilots, flight controls, weather and the list goes on and on..... At least they’re making attempts to fix them though. One does wonder if they released this early to find all of these problems, we’re all pretty much beta testers.

I’m not complaining. Just trying to make a point. 

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6 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

True, but I’d rather have broken scenery that can be fixed later, that waiting on broken auto pilots, flight controls, weather and the list goes on and on..... At least they’re making attempts to fix them though. One does wonder if they released this early to find all of these problems, we’re all pretty much beta testers.

I’m not complaining. Just trying to make a point. 

No, I agree. I think when we look back on MSFS a year from now, maybe sooner, we will see how far it’s come and hopefully by then the lingering issues will be a thing of the past.

I still haven’t gotten it only because I pretty much need a whole computer upgrade, but I haven’t even fired up my existing sim in over a year as I got a little burned out and have a lot of other hobbies that occupy my free time.  I’m not really in a rush since I’m waiting for all the bugs to be worked out and my favorite 3rd party planes to appear before I get a new rig.

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On 9/5/2020 at 4:19 PM, Ricardo41 said:

Big shot Microsoft marketing manager: Man, this is amazing, over 1 million gamers are playing MSFS!

Asobo employee, thinning hair, nerdy glasses, pocket protector: But, sir, we need to fix the Turboprop logic. Fixing this is a real priority to the sim community. It got 230 upvotes. 

Big shot Microsoft marketing manager looking puzzled: who is this guy? Get the f... outta here!

🤨😣 in true AVSIM negativity. 

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12 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

True, but I’d rather have broken scenery that can be fixed later, that waiting on broken auto pilots, flight controls, weather and the list goes on and on..... At least they’re making attempts to fix them though. One does wonder if they released this early to find all of these problems, we’re all pretty much beta testers.

I’m not complaining. Just trying to make a point. 

I think it was pretty clear that the call was made to release the sim before Asobo themselves were ready - possibly because of impacts from COVID, as well as typical delays.  The first big hint of this was the weirdly brief beta period (~2 weeks), after about 8 months of being in closed alpha.  The SDK also being unfinished seems like a big hint.

Thus, it's also pretty clear that we are in a glorified open beta right now - and I can live with that.  I think pretty much all of us were going to buy and use this sim whether it came out now, or six months from now - so I just look at it as a bonus that I get to experience it for myself early.\

I'll take a sim with pretty good GA VFR flying right now and wonky IFR/jetliners, over not being able to use it at all.  Plus it's been sorta fun watching how quickly the community is coming together to make and fix stuff.

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1 hour ago, Scottoest said:

I think it was pretty clear that the call was made to release the sim before Asobo themselves were ready - possibly because of impacts from COVID, as well as typical delays.  The first big hint of this was the weirdly brief beta period (~2 weeks), after about 8 months of being in closed alpha.  The SDK also being unfinished seems like a big hint.

Thus, it's also pretty clear that we are in a glorified open beta right now - and I can live with that.  I think pretty much all of us were going to buy and use this sim whether it came out now, or six months from now - so I just look at it as a bonus that I get to experience it for myself early.\

I'll take a sim with pretty good GA VFR flying right now and wonky IFR/jetliners, over not being able to use it at all.  Plus it's been sorta fun watching how quickly the community is coming together to make and fix stuff.

Yup, no different to xplane betas in that respect. 

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2 hours ago, Scottoest said:

Thus, it's also pretty clear that we are in a glorified open beta right now - and I can live with that.  I think pretty much all of us were going to buy and use this sim whether it came out now, or six months from now - so I just look at it as a bonus that I get to experience it for myself early.\

The word "Beta" has almost lost its traditional meaning these days, but it used to mean "feature complete and now we're just squashing bugs."

There is a lot that isn't feature complete yet in the avionics, engine management, and some aspects of the flight model. It's more like a paid Early Access release, where anyone who buys it understands that it's both incomplete and buggy. On the other hand, it's functional enough to charge money for the experience, and it will gradually get better. A well-run Early Access program benefits both developers and consumers.

I'm surprised MS didn't just call it a paid Early Access release in the first place. They wouldn't have lost many sales considering how much pent-up enthusiasm there was for a new MSFS, and they might have avoided some of the drama with people having problems. You expect problems with an EA release. There is an expectation of a more polished product if it's a final "Gold" release.
 

52 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Yup, no different to xplane betas in that respect. 

Not exactly because you don't pay for the betas, they're just opt-in during the life cycle of each version.

X-Plane 11 did have a few months of paid Early Access before final release to get wider feedback. If you were interested enough to experience the new version, even though it wasn't complete and a bit buggy, you paid for it and got in early.


X-Plane and Microsoft Flight Simulator on Windows 10 
i7 6700 4.0 GHz, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1660 ti, 1920x1200 monitor

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18 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

This is up for debate. I personally believe FSX didn’t need as much ‘fixing’ as MSFS does. 
MSFS Great scenery yeah (apart from when it turns blurry above 7000ft, or has crappy low res ortho). Not so great autopilots, flight controls (alpha yoke bugs, caused by msfs), weather bugs, etc etc etc...... 

So yes, it’s great that they continue to update it, however, out of the box, FSX was far more useable for a pilot. 

I had this debate many times for years now even among us pilots we dont  all agree that fsx was all around complete but we all have different opinions. Like every other sim give it time . 


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I will agree with all those dissatisfied with the initial release and the first patch.  There is much to be done...  

That said, the single thing that keeps me hopeful and supportive, is the enthusiasm and dedication of the lads from Asobo.  They have to deal with a company whose decision making levels are complex enough to baffle most of us here, whilst trying to assure our rabidly critical sim crowd of their attention and perseverance.  It is a tough place to be.

As long as MS realizes that THIS TIME, they will have to let the DEVELOPER steer the ship to avoid catastrophic consequence a la MS FLIGHT, it will all be ok.  If the bean counters get anxious too quickly, it will all be for naught.  Hopefully, this time they will stay the course, and reap the reward.  In doing so, we all will all get rewarded too.

I am happy to do my part to fund the evolution of this simulator by having purchased the Premium Deluxe version.  Yes, at the moment I do consider it a public beta and I fly it only once or twice a week. Eventually I hope to make it my daily Sim platform- it's that promising!

Unfortunately, the current generation's pursuit of instant gratification has led to much vitriol.  They tend to demand satisfaction, and then hungrily move on to the next experience. I am patient enough to await the promised experience- but then again I'm a crusty old curmudgeon... what do I know?

C

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Carl Avari-Cooper

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3 hours ago, Paraffin said:

The word "Beta" has almost lost its traditional meaning these days, but it used to mean "feature complete and now we're just squashing bugs."

In modern game development, beta is the new alpha, and post-release is the new beta, lol.

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3 hours ago, cavaricooper said:

As long as MS realizes that THIS TIME, they will have to let the DEVELOPER steer the ship to avoid catastrophic consequence a la MS FLIGHT, it will all be ok.  If the bean counters get anxious too quickly, it will all be for naught.  Hopefully, this time they will stay the course, and reap the reward.  In doing so, we all will all get rewarded too.

This aspect doesn't worry me at all, as someone who has followed the evolution of the Xbox division at Microsoft more closely than probably a lot of people here.

I don't think anyone in a decision making capacity from the MS Flight-era is even at Microsoft anymore.  New developer, answering to a new division head at Xbox, who himself answers directly to a new CEO.

In the Game Pass-era, Microsoft are largely content to let their studios just work on their games, so long as the engagement is there to make it worthwhile (meaning people still playing).  Engagement in Flight Sim is extremely high right now, and should only solidify further in the coming months, as Asobo work out some of the problems, and the study level aircraft people are waiting for starts trickling in.

Considering Asobo aren't Microsoft-owned, it also wouldn't shock me if they have a contract for several years of support anyway.  Certainly they will be contracted up and through whatever their post-release DLC plans are at minimum, so we are definitely talking years..

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On 9/5/2020 at 7:57 PM, Ianrivaldosmith said:

True, but I’d rather have broken scenery that can be fixed later, that waiting on broken auto pilots, flight controls, weather and the list goes on and on..... At least they’re making attempts to fix them though. One does wonder if they released this early to find all of these problems, we’re all pretty much beta testers.

I’m not complaining. Just trying to make a point. 

The problem is that you're looking at this new sim with the same lens as you have others before. In reality this is a very different type of sim due to the underlying tech revolution. They're modeling the entire planet at a detail never before seen in any default sim. This is fact.

For this reason, we will have to accept deficiencies in other areas of the sim for now. And even then, we have flyable GA aircraft and functioning AP for most modes out of the gate. That should all be taken in context. 


FSX | DCS | X-Plane 11 | MSFS 2020 | IL2:BoX

Favorite aircraft currently: MSFS Savage Cub

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2 hours ago, Slides said:

The problem is that you're looking at this new sim with the same lens as you have others before. In reality this is a very different type of sim due to the underlying tech revolution. They're modeling the entire planet at a detail never before seen in any default sim. This is fact.

For this reason, we will have to accept deficiencies in other areas of the sim for now. And even then, we have flyable GA aircraft and functioning AP for most modes out of the gate. That should all be taken in context. 

I am pretty sure the team that was working on the "modeling of the entire planet at a detail never to be seen before" was not the same that was working on flight dynamics and autopilots. So i guess it wouldn't be an unrealistic expectation to get a working plane with working avionics at release.

And please stop telling people they shouldn't look at MSFS through the same lens as on FSX. For me as a user i don't care. I have paid a whole bunch of money for MSFS and expect the basic things to work. 

Edited by ThomseN_inc
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58 minutes ago, ThomseN_inc said:

I am pretty sure the team that was working on the "modeling of the entire planet at a detail never to be seen before" was not the same that was working on flight dynamics and autopilots. So i guess it wouldn't be an unrealistic expectation to get a working plane with working avionics at release.

And please stop telling people they shouldn't look at MSFS through the same lens as on FSX. For me as a user i don't care. I have paid a whole bunch of money for MSFS and expect the basic things to work. 

Yup, pretty much my response too. 

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Not really sure where to post this, as I'm not sure it really warrants it's own thread, but has anyone taken a look at the X-Plane.org forum thread on MSFS recently (since for some reason they are apparently only allowing a single thread for MSFS in their subforum.. dedicated to discussing other sims)?  I happened to take a look at it this morning, just out of curiosity at how that community had responded to the new release, and... yeah.

Frankly, they should be kinda embarrassed and ashamed of what a toxic dumpster fire of arrogant condescension and trolling that thread is (and has been allowed to become).  As far as I can tell barely any actual users of the software are even posting in it any more (they've evidently been chased off), and it's just a bunch of XP fans yukking it up with one another about how they think it's an arcade game for babies.  And if you go back enough, you realize that several of them openly admit that they haven't even tried it themselves.

I guess I just expected a little better from a community of what I assume is primarily older folks in the sim community.

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Wow, the ATC phraseology is on their radar, that's fantastic. It's so bad on the initial release I'm surprised they didn't give us the option of announcing "taking the active" for takeoff.

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