The Tide of Progress is Unstoppable

[Dillon 2,197]

2 hours ago, tpete61 said:

You must know something I don't know.

I'm not confident in anything MS/Asobo is doing right now.

Basically a month between updates/patches at present. Crazy long for this big development team everyone speaks of.

Right now this product is nothing more than a video game to view world scenery.

After all the hype has started to settle I hope people realize XP & p3D are better choices at present for a flight simulator. For game playing this product gets the job done!

Some day it may be a first class simulation but it has a very long time to go while other companies work on what they have. I believe they will improve along the same timeline that it will take to fix this rushed product.

No praise from here and no adulation for this game in any aspect.

 

 

This is the nuttiest thing I’ve read since release.  FS2020 blows everything else out the water and that’s with bugs.  The cost savings of getting the sim up to speed is huge as well.  The freeware market is buzzing in a way I haven’t seen since the FS9 days.  When freeware starts looking like Orbx in previous versions of FS something special is going on.  The flight dynamics is the sim is the best yet seen in a desktop simulator.  All other options look 10 years behind FS2020 out the box.  To get other options on somewhat a competitive level your spending hundreds on add-ons and a couple thousand on hardware to run it.  After a little over a month I’m more than amazed.  My only concern is the hold Microsoft has over this hobby now.  They can at any time pull the plug on the scenery severs, change the core sim, fall out with Asobo, and/or lock down the sim unless we all pay a monthly fee.  That’s why I still keep FS9 around.  It’s fully tricked out and I own the CD’s.  This would be the same for anyone owning a stable tweaked version of FSX.  From P3D or FS2020 where you need corporate approval every time you launch the sim your asking to get screwed down the road.  Enjoy the ride now but have no expectations for the long haul like we had with every previous version prior to FSX.  Again to the quote above that observation of FS2020 is crazy to me...

Edited September 23, 2020 by Dillon

[greggerm 312]

1 hour ago, Huascar said:

I am confident the while imperfect, MSFS is the start of a first class flight simulation.

Glass half full.

1 hour ago, tpete61 said:

No praise from here and no adulation for this game in any aspect.

Glass half empty.

As for me? My cup overflows.Sure, some water is spilling out and making a mess - nothing's ever perfect. But I'm enjoying the heck out of this new experience.

[Noel 4,502]

The thing is nothing short of revolutionary.  I just completed two flights that were completely unmatched by anything P3D could do and they were flawless.  No, it doesn't yet have the sophistication of the other VERY OLD platforms, but in my mind that is really the easy part compared to what's already been accomplished, and very well at that.  I'm only flying the TBM930 now but I am awestruck by just how sophisticated this sim is already, and it's barely getting started.  I'm clearly in the fortunate group that is having zero issues.   I'm having a very hard time going back to P3D despite the fact I've used it for 30h/week for years and FSX before that.  Sorry for all those who are struggling with it and I appreciate their perspective will be different than mine.

[sholay 45]

1 hour ago, Scarabrae said:

(...)

Most of the problems and negativity tend to come from people without the correct hardware, a vocal minority with bottlenecked PC's and inferior cards. I actually read a post from someone complaining about "how the weather looked!" Not enough aerosols or something! Madness!(...)

Naaah,

I have mid-level gaming laptop and I am able to play P3D in medum graphics settings and MSFS in 'low-medium' area.

P3D is not even close to MSFS in terms of graphics, even despite I have most of ORBX, ASP3D etc. Yet MSFS runs with much more fps and less stuttering. 

So, no, you do not need to have correct hardware to appreciate MSFS. 

 

&

Edited September 23, 2020 by sholay

[wthomas33065 994]

17 minutes ago, wainwj said:

I wasn't a tester but I'm in friend circles with testers and they confirmed that issues were constantly reported on the forums but were not always addressed by the developer.

This is not meant to be a criticism of you.  But this is really the crux of the problem here.

I am not an employee of Microsoft or Asobo and have no professional interest in the game, but I am a veteran hardware/software tester and technical support technician involved with software development.

A lot of alpha and beta testers are NOT professional software testers.  They do not have the training or background on how to properly report a bug, provide useful replication steps and accurately portray the frequency of the issue.

In fact.  If someone does have a bug, the first thing they should try to do is immediately recreate it.   Recently someone reported that "ALL Airports in Iceland caused a CTD".  Later is was narrowed down in the thread to one airport.  I tried that airport, and initially I did get a CTD.  Funny thing is, I changed planes and couldn't get it again.  Again, this is important information.  Stating every airport in Iceland causes a CTD is miles different than if I start at X airport with Y aircraft I get a CTD.  And even with that information, I could not replicate reliably each time.  Some bugs are like that.  Which is why Frequency of occurrence is so important.   If you tell someone it happens about 1 time out 10.  Then they will test more times, knowing it is less frequent.  But if you say it "always happens" and then someone tests something 3 times without it happening....Can't Reproduce......

No offense, but software development house rely on FORUM posts as notification, but rarely are such posts helpful in anything more than raising a flag and nothing more.

Case in Point.  Someone ranted about an Avionics Bug that appears to be affecting a lot of users on this forum.  When I asked them for reproduction steps, here was the response.  1  Start Flight Simulator, 2.  Pick any plane.  3.  Fly around. 4.  Avionics shuts down.    Yeah....OK.   

If you can't give more information than you would give your mechanic describing an issue with your car, then don't be surprised when your report is relegated to the circular file.

The purpose for alpha and beta testing is to provide exposure to the program to a variety of systems and configurations that would otherwise be impossible to achieve without it.  But it is the alpha an beta testers that need to provide clear concise system information, precise reproduction steps, frequency of occurrence, and other information necessary to track down an issue.  

If the report is complete enough to allow for in-house replication of the issue, then the process of actually fixing the issue can begin.  However if the thread simply states Hey, Avionics shut off on me, followed by a lot of metoo's, don't expect a lot of response until someone can take the bull by the horns and provide a report that is both useful and detailed.

[Rudiii 257]

16 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

You mean this thread in the MSFS forums?  https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/is-there-patch-information-tomorrow-24-september/282579/8.  People are confusing Asobo/Microsoft's definition of "Update" and an actual patch to fix the problems.

Asobo/Microsoft always has an update on the status of the game every Thursday.  They issue an "update" every Thursday to talk about the roadmap, status of the game, etc.  That's not the same thing as having a patch to fix the problems.  So if there is where the rumors are coming from, there will not be a patch tomorrow.  There will be an "update" from Asobo/Microsoft tomorrow like every Thursday where they post about the progress with the game.  There will not be a patch tomorrow to fix the problems though, that is expected in October.

I used the word "update" to generally refer to news or patches as I look forward to any sort of progress on the sim.

[eslader 1,783]

1 hour ago, tpete61 said:

It has been painfully slow.

Slower than fixing the FSX bugs that still exist in P3d5? 

When Asobo takes 14 years to fix something, come back and talk to us. Until then, you're just indulging in a bizarre vendetta.

The sim's not perfect. It needs a lot of work. But the stuff it needs work in like flight dynamics is stuff that's a lot easier to fix than the stuff that FSX/P3d need work in, such as scenery, weather, etc.

 

 

[Rudiii 257]

3 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

This is not meant to be a criticism of you.  But this is really the crux of the problem here.

I am not an employee of Microsoft or Asobo and have no professional interest in the game, but I am a veteran hardware/software tester and technical support technician involved with software development.

A lot of alpha and beta testers are NOT professional software testers.  They do not have the training or background on how to properly report a bug, provide useful replication steps and accurately portray the frequency of the issue.

In fact.  If someone does have a bug, the first thing they should try to do is immediately recreate it.   Recently someone reported that "ALL Airports in Iceland caused a CTD".  Later is was narrowed down in the thread to one airport.  I tried that airport, and initially I did get a CTD.  Funny thing is, I changed planes and couldn't get it again.  Again, this is important information.  Stating every airport in Iceland causes a CTD is miles different than if I start at X airport with Y aircraft I get a CTD.  And even with that information, I could not replicate reliably each time.  Some bugs are like that.  Which is why Frequency of occurrence is so important.   If you tell someone it happens about 1 time out 10.  Then they will test more times, knowing it is less frequent.  But if you say it "always happens" and then someone tests something 3 times without it happening....Can't Reproduce......

No offense, but software development house rely on FORUM posts as notification, but rarely are such posts helpful in anything more than raising a flag and nothing more.

Case in Point.  Someone ranted about an Avionics Bug that appears to be affecting a lot of users on this forum.  When I asked them for reproduction steps, here was the response.  1  Start Flight Simulator, 2.  Pick any plane.  3.  Fly around. 4.  Avionics shuts down.    Yeah....OK.   

If you can't give more information than you would give your mechanic describing an issue with your car, then don't be surprised when your report is relegated to the circular file.

The purpose for alpha and beta testing is to provide exposure to the program to a variety of systems and configurations that would otherwise be impossible to achieve without it.  But it is the alpha an beta testers that need to provide clear concise system information, precise reproduction steps, frequency of occurrence, and other information necessary to track down an issue.  

If the report is complete enough to allow for in-house replication of the issue, then the process of actually fixing the issue can begin.  However if the thread simply states Hey, Avionics shut off on me, followed by a lot of metoo's, don't expect a lot of response until someone can take the bull by the horns and provide a report that is both useful and detailed.

I agree with most of this. I do wish the process had been more robust and selective.

I personally didn't bother as I didn't think my feedback would be useful. I regretted this once I realised it was just a way to play early and for free haha.

[SierraDelta 1,342]

4 minutes ago, wainwj said:

I used the word "update" to generally refer to news or patches

Looked a bit different to me:
"Update rumoured for tomorrow. Along with the two already released. "

 

[Ianrivaldosmith 5,317]

24 minutes ago, Dillon said:

FS2020 blows everything else out the water and that’s with bugs

The scenery and weather depiction does, yes. However for everything else, it certainly doesn’t blow anything out of the water. 

[abrams_tank 7,423]

Just now, SierraDelta said:

Looked a bit different to me:
"Update rumoured for tomorrow. Along with the two already released. "

 

So, there will be a "progress report" tomorrow by Asobo/Microsoft.  This is not a rumor, it's what they do every Thursday.  I really wish Asobo/Microsoft would use "progress report" or some other terminology so people don't get confused.

[airlinejets 709]

58 minutes ago, overspeed3 said:

I keep repeating myself here:  What exactly were the Beta and Alpha volunteers meant for over the year of pre-testing?  In any company's software world the answer would be:  Primarily to report report back bugs, problems, and anomalies (that need to be corrected).  Moreover, why exactly were the strict NDA rules imposed upon them for?  

Were they all just used for a MS hype campaign?  

The NDA is still active.

[VFXSimmer 1,310]

36 minutes ago, Ixoye said:

This sim is more like a Sightseeing Simulator than a Flight Simulator at the moment, but I have still high hopes for this software.

Saying this is sort of like saying that X-Plane and P3D are more like spreadsheets than something that imitates the sensation of flying.

Both statements are wrong and both are infused with unmerrited hyperbole.

MSFS has bugs in some of the systems but to claim its not a flight simulator is a little silly.

[romanus 28]

6 minutes ago, flyforever said:

Since I view all of this as a hobby, I don't have a problem indulging in as many sims as I can have on my pc. As with power tools or any other activity that assumes pleasure and interest first and  business as second, the new sim for me is an extension of my hobby. I am not doing it because my business requires precise tools; rather, I am doing it because it's fun.

So depending on my mood, each sim offers value. This sim is currently giving me a chance t o enjoy landscapes never seen before. And to this end, I can see the day when bush flying in some of these exotic places will be fun again.

The argument between hard core and soft core sim is weak, now that we have more than one sim. No one is forcing anyone to abandon one sim for another. Why is it that people forget that Asobo is only one month old while the other sims decades old?

Let's all enjoy this wonderful( have you seen what golf clubs and membership cost) cheap hobby.

tc

Thank you!!

I have spent a few hours in the new sim, and there is plenty of fun to be had, and the potential is exciting. I don't know anyone from Asobo, and know little about them or their ability/intentions to follow through and make this the end all be all flight sim. However, what is great right now is that we as flight simmers still have excellent options. FS9, FSX, X-Plane, and a few others. I plan to upgrade my PC which will allow me to fully enjoy FSX, something my current PC wont allow. And with a better PC, I can buy X-Plane now. So much awesome between just those two. And I will always keep my 1950s-ish FS9 CalClassic install around when I want to time travel. I was, years ago, heavy into the military sims. Falcon 4, Janes, etc. That genre went through a bit of a dry spell, where all we had was what came before. Now we have DCS. Which my old rig can't handle, so something else to look forward to.

People have a right to complain, and a right to their expectations, but a lot of what I am reading is kind of silly. 2020 as it is, is amazing. Asobo could, if they decided to, release one or two more updates and call it a day. I don't think they will. This engine has so much potential. As I am flying around, I keep thinking of Train simulators and Trucking/Driving simulators in this environment. And with so much of the world being sent to our rooms like children, what better time to enjoy this great indoor hobby. And what better reason for the developers to get it right. A lot of attention focused on their product. The coverage of a flight sim, I don't think, has ever been this broad. I get news stories in the various feeds I follow, from all sorts of places not normally even into gaming.

Our two main options that are under current development/support are MSFS 2020 and X-Plane, that I am aware of. Someone throwing their hands up in frustration, and giving up this early, just doesn't make sense. When we get word that Asobo is done with development/support, and it's still a mess, then by all means, let loose the dogs of war. But until then, darn, grab your favorite plane and enjoy a nice flight from A to B in your sim of choice. I thought our hobby was flight simming, not chronic complaining.

 

 

[wthomas33065 994]

7 minutes ago, wainwj said:

I agree with most of this. I do wish the process had been more robust and selective.

I personally didn't bother as I didn't think my feedback would be useful. I regretted this once I realised it was just a way to play early and for free haha.

Again no criticism of you.  Software testing is tedious work, which is one of the reasons I went into technical support.  You get to actually troubleshoot issues and solve problems instead of just performing endless testing or test case creation.   However, when one of our customers reports a problem, I go back to my testing background.  Let's see if we can reproduce the behavior 100% of the time.  It's amazing how fast developers can fix items when they can get it to happen consistently with well written reproduction steps.  Without those, they will try a couple of times and then give up.  

Unfortunately a lot of Alpha and Beta testers do approach the process as a way to play early and free, they submit a half complete report or one line observation and move on.  Most companies realize this, so that's why comments that come in from Alpha and Beta are taken with a grain of salt, unless it's a really SEVERE and widespread complaint.  The Winds Aloft issue is a prime example of this.  It was reproducible almost 100% of the time, so work is being done on this.  The Avionics bug will take much longer to track down.  I've had my own share of weird Avionics issues, like the Grand Caravan simply deciding to lose ALT lock and attempt to dive me into the ground for no real reason, but never having the entire avionics suite power down in mid flight.