10 hours ago, Chock said:

Yup, I'm with this opinion too, largely because I don't really recognise this currently trendy use of the word toxic as being a sensible description for the phenomenon people are referring to in the first place; toxic would imply that it is poisonous to all who come into contact with it.

I offered a formal definition of social toxicity in my post above and laid out exactly why I think Avsim is, by that definiton, toxic, and it is as you say:  because it is damaging to the flight sim "culture" as a whole, just as "toxic masculinity", which is probably where the whole "toxic" thing comes from, is damaging to western society as a whole.   That people use "toxic" in other ways differing from its original use in this context does not devalue my argument.

 

8 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

Oh yes, a last word. I do not see anything wrong in being a male.

You, also, seem to have either not read or misunderstood my post, as I laid out precisely what "toxic masculinity" means and it has nothing to do with simply being male.  It has to do with the destructive nature of the classic western idea of what a "man" should be and its built-in homophobia and misogyny, along with other lesser flaws.

If you're not a homophobic, misogynistic "man's man", then congratulations:  the term doesn't fit you.  But that hardly seems relevant to this conversation.

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by kaosfere

51 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

 Good Heavens, this is what a forum is all about ! Disagree

You can disagree without being disagreeable.   You can have high standards without being arrogant and elitist.  You can even say "we don't want anyone here who hasn't been flight simming for at least 10 years and can start multiple airliners without looking at a checklist."

But you can't denigrate or devalue those who do not meet your standard for selection.  And there is a sizeable portion of the userbase here that does just that.  This is easily demonstrated by examining the reputation that Avsim has elsewhere for being hostile and unpleasant to any one who doesn't meet their "standards".

 

56 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

By the way, I am not sure what is the contrary of « gatekeeping «  ? « Inclusiveness », the trendy buzzword ? Overrated. Smart newcomers do adapt, snowflakes melt, I mean, leave.  Life.

... or one could just read to the end of your post.

Anyone who doesn't adapt to your standards for excellence is a "snowflake"?  That is what I object to, not to having those standards in the first place.

What you are demonstrating there is not selectiveness;  it's intolerance.

2 hours ago, eslader said:

There's definitely a "I'm a hardcore simmer and you filthy casuals aren't" attitude prevalent in a lot of the posts, and that *can* be a turnoff to new people who just bought this game because it looked pretty.

As I've mentioned previously, it was exactly that attitude that first struck me when I initially arrived in the various communities, and contributed to years of semi-lurking before stepping out, which then led to years of running battles with the infamous "Snave" and others who were well known for their RTFM!!! type posts to newbies, who were often never seen again after encountering the aforementioneds tendency to be "Frank" and "Honest", which generally meant rude and loving it.

At the time, I had the energy to duke it out with those folks on behalf of other newbies under assault (the Welcome To Avsim thread was pretty much my idea, to make the forum a bit friendlier) 

Some may remember the threads a few years ago in which all that came to a head, and ended in some folks being disinvited or moving on.....

Fortunately that sort of thing isn't necessary anymore, and frankly I wouldn't have the stomach for it even if it was.

Orthodoxy and status quo (generally) wins, but there are still folks ready to take up the sword for the filthy casuals, gamers, kids, and other lesser animals.

Or not. Honestly, I do sometimes think certain attitudes have become so long term and widespread in the community (not singling out Avsim) that we don't even hear how we sometimes sound to the outside anymore.

EDIT: Corrected misspellings

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by HiFlyer

3 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

who were thereafter never seen again after encountering the aforementioneds tendency to be "Frank" and "Honest", which generally meant rude and loving it.

Isn't it funny how people who are "just telling like it is" pretty much universally use that to mean "I'm being an a-hole and I know it"?.   Except "funny" isn't the right word.  The right word is rather rude.

17 minutes ago, kaosfere said:

You can disagree without being disagreeable.   You can have high standards without being arrogant and elitist.  You can even say "we don't want anyone here who hasn't been flight simming for at least 10 years and can start multiple airliners without looking at a checklist." 

But you can't denigrate or devalue those who do not meet your standard for selection.  Agree 

And there is a sizeable portion of the userbase here that does just that.  Disagree. This is just wrong.

This is easily demonstrated by examining the reputation that Avsim has elsewhere for being hostile and unpleasant to any one who doesn't meet their "standards". Totally disagree. What is "elsewhere" ? Let us stop hiding behind our little finger ! AS I said it before there is a group of nasty people on Reddit who, in the same breath that they berate Avsim users, says horrific things on Avsim including on the late Jim Young. Ghouls. I credit you to be i g n o r a n t in the matter. You find the same phrases on the MSF forum.  Same people plus the usual parrots who follow suits.

... or one could just read to the end of your post.

Anyone who doesn't adapt to your standards for excellence is a "snowflake"?  That is what I object to, not to having those standards in the first place. 

You distort what I said. I said that people who cannot accept a robust but polite discussion are snowflakes, not those who have not my standards of excellence. I do not have any  standards by the way.  I have been preaching here for years that there are NO standard of excellence but a diverse community which together shape up in a market for our our mutual advantages. From the PMDG maniac to the guys who use the sim as a virtual RC or sightseeing means. 

What you are demonstrating there is not selectiveness;  it's intolerance

  I have been preaching again and again for the freedom ot speech on this forum including for those that I don't share the opinions, so give me a break, will you? 

 

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by Dominique_K

1 hour ago, eslader said:

Avsim should be gatekeeping to keep spam out, and keep trolls out (frankly they're not doing a great job on that because a lot of the "MSFS sucks" threads are clearly nothing but trolls

Interesting...
Given the pushback by the staunch MSFS fans against *any* criticism, I would say it is the other way round - i.e. you cannot be a flight simmer if you don't appreciate MSFS in its current state and certainly not if you complain about it in a post.
IMO, the gatekeeping of flight simming on the MSFS forums occurs when anything short of glowing praise is expressed, it is quickly shut down with replies such as: "it's new" / "FSX took ages to get updates" / "10 years of support" / "only 2 months old", usually followed by a comment suggesting 'get out of here, you troll...'

More generally (rather than directly addressing @eslader), while some evident trolling of [insert name of favourite sim here] does exist, instead of ignoring, some Avsimers take it as a personal challenge to defend their favourite sim as if their lives depended on it.

Trolling threads tend to die rather quickly if they are not responded to.
Remember, this is a discussion forum to exchange opinions. One doesn't have to do all of the speaking all of the time.
 

54 minutes ago, kaosfere said:

I'm going to grant the benefit of some doubt here given that your location says you are from France, and thus English may not be your first language, plus you may not be fully immersed in American culture and aware of the overtones of what you are saying.

Thus, you may not be aware that "snowflake" is a distinctly derogatory term that's seen heavy use by right-wingers to insult anyone who is offended by their world view.  Those who object to the right-wing culture, to the expectations, limitations, prejudices, and demands of it, are considered to be "snowflakes".  Taunting them is the point of it.

If you are sincere in valuing diversity and the freedom of speech for all, I will apologize for my statements and suggest that you should probably be aware of that and perhaps adjust your usage of it, at least in contexts that are English- (or, particularly, American-) heavy.

I lived in the US for six years and had professionally many interactions with US companies and administration when I was not. I precisely know what a snowflake is 😁 ! 

This forum, my friend, gathers people of various political opinions.  I suspect that ours, yours and mine, are a bit different ! It is good to have places like Avsim which allow to transcend that.  

It is just wrong to say that this forum has a  significant number  of intolerant users. There are boors and trolls and some repetitive idiots  of course but these are a minority. Most of us are glad to see new faces and willing to help. Are people proud of their own way of simming, of course human nature, and that is good !   Better anyway than to diss the community to which you belong. A nasty trend of this day and age.

 

EDIT I have not answered your last remarks on "the destructive nature of the classic western idea of what a "man" should be " by respect for the moderators blood pressure.

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by Dominique_K

25 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

I have not answered your last remarks on "the destructive nature of the classic western idea of what a "man" should be " by respect for the moderators blood pressure.

No need, you have made your opinions quite clear through your other statements already.  Thank you, if nothing else, for doing everyone that service.

This thread has irony at massive levels running through it 😂🤣

2 hours ago, kaosfere said:

I'm going to grant the benefit of some doubt here given that your location says you are from France, and thus English may not be your first language.

 

I am from England, where the language originated and consider myself to be reasonably well able to communicate effectively in that language. Frankly, I am deeply impressed with Dominique's literacy and skilled use of my language as well as his breadth of knowledge. I am well aware that he does not need me or anyone else to defend him but given the remark made, I would like to express my admiration. Even though over the years we have not always agreed, we have always contrived to disagree politely.

 

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by Reader

27 minutes ago, Reader said:

I am from England, where the language originated

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news:-

English is a West Germanic language that originated from Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain in the mid 5th to 7th centuries AD by Anglo-Saxon migrants from what is now northwest Germany, southern Denmark and the Netherlands.

 

 

This topic is becoming a "Wandering Minstrel Show" 🎻🪕
 

14 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news:-English is a West Germanic language that originated from Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain in the mid 5th to 7th centuries AD by Anglo-Saxon migrants from what is now northwest Germany, southern Denmark and the Netherlands.

Thanks, skilled use of Wikipedia is to be congratulated and I stand corrected. Nevertheless, the widespread use of English is primarily due to the British Empire of yesteryear and that version of the language originated in England, which is what I intended to be understood. However, I see that we are irritating the moderator, so perhaps we should leave the discussion to those who wish to assess the relative toxicity of the Avsim forums.🙂

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by Reader

With several hundred emojis available for selection is English relevant anyways, wherever

 it came from Agreed this is gone way off topic.

 

Edited November 3, 20205 yr by icewater5

Joined this community as an appendage to the new flight simulator release.  New to simmimg in general.

My first impression was that the atmosphere here is a little tense.  Not really toxic, but not most inviting. 

First impression was wrong!  Read over many threads since then, in different sub-forums, and my opinion about AVSIM changed to a positive one.

Initially, I stayed only in MSFS section and concerned myself with wrong discussions.  Gravitated towards sensational 'headlines' that took centre stage obstructing valuable content. Who doesn't like a good controversy?

Bickering about which acronym for the new sim is the only proper one, scorn at those who dare to call it a 'game', and some others I don't recall now. 

The biggest impact was made by discussions about gamers vs simmers.  There were always people on opposing sides of discussion, but those against 'gamers' left a more lasting impression.  Took it a little personally, but that's my own fault.  Now I know the topic, I know it's not personal, and that all opinions come from passion for this hobby.  I understand concerns of both sides and feel educated enough to conclude casual users are a good thing for flight simmimg in general.

Having spent more time with all of you, I see these topics as outliers to the general spirit of AVSIM - good to read over, but not what this place is about.  They were also only hints of toxicity I noticed.

The forum is a treasure trove of information about aviation.  All kinds of questions are asked and answered in civilized manner.  I especially love situations where people don't take the bait and respond calmly where it could have easily turned into a confrontation.  Shows that the userbase values civility over typical flame wars seen elsewhere.

To me the forum is not toxic.  A little unaaprochable if one has a misguided attitude and also lands in wrong threads in the beginning.  Things start to make more sense when focus switches to learning about aviation.  If it's not posted already, someone will help.  

Posts sharing interesting stories and anecdotes are just a cherry on top of the whole thing.

I'm really happy about how much I ended up liking flying virtual planes.  Just the other day I took off in an area I don't know so visual landmarks weren't a factor and flew a C152 to a specific VOR.  Not by accident either!  Information from AVSIM was big help in this personal achievement.

All this is from a novice's perspective.  This horse was led to water, first sip was a little funny-tasting but by no means toxic.  Now time for more and hope to stick around for the next while.