WORKINGTITLE Working Title CJ4 v0.8.0 - OPEN BETA - RNAV/LPV, VNAV, FADEC

[Tom_L 533]

Guys, you rock! Updated the sim without issues and only a few hours later I'm back in the CJ4 with the mod again. Here's my report of the first flight:

Routing: LOWS15 DETS2B DETSA Y106 CHI Y664 IBRID IBRI1Q LIRQ05

Observations: during climb I had to change from FLC to VS because of porpoising when passing FL300, VS was then relatively more stable (+/- 500-1000ft/min). There were definitely moderate turbulences over the alps, so I can't say if FLC was causing this. Enroute, when reaching DETSA, the aircraft turned RIGHT instead of left to NIVAS. The LNAV bearing pointer (magenta needle) turned approx. >90° to the right before returning to the correct direction, I think that was causing the issue. I could provide a video of the event if that helps. Following VNAV Path I ended up way too high on the approach - but that happens if you don't use your own math to be ahead of the plane - so no big issue with the mod I think. What IS an issue imho is that Navaids seem to be hit or miss - at least for me. So I tuned most of the navaids along the route with the following results:

• SI (410) NDB: only shows when BRG SRC is set to ADF1, not showing on ADF2
• TRE (302) NDB: didn't show at all
• 115.75 FOL VOR: didn't show, no matter if BRG SRC was set to VOR1 or VOR2
• 113.60 CEV VOR: the same
• 108.80 RMN VOR: the same

Other NDB's/VOR's along the route were showing as expected. That corresponds with my earlier observations regarding 115.80 ALF VOR/DME not showing when tuned in for the ILS at EDDH. On a pre-patch flight from EGLC SND (363) NDB didn't display. Both are definitely in the MSFS database.

But apart from that, I'm having some great flights with "your CJ4", thanks a lot! (a decent IFR platform is so much more important now as looking out of the window tends to be awkward im many places due to the newly introduced elevation issues. Funny how they always find something to "entertain" us 😁)

Edited December 23, 2020 by Tom_L
Forgot one incident

[cwburnett 1,809]

1 hour ago, Tom_L said:

Guys, you rock! Updated the sim without issues and only a few hours later I'm back in the CJ4 with the mod again. Here's my report of the first flight:

Routing: LOWS15 DETS2B DETSA Y106 CHI Y664 IBRID IBRI1Q LIRQ05

Observations: during climb I had to change from FLC to VS because of porpoising when passing FL300, VS was then relatively more stable (+/- 500-1000ft/min). There were definitely moderate turbulences over the alps, so I can't say if FLC was causing this. Enroute, when reaching DETSA, the aircraft turned RIGHT instead of left to NIVAS. The LNAV bearing pointer (magenta needle) turned approx. >90° to the right before returning to the correct direction, I think that was causing the issue. I could provide a video of the event if that helps. Following VNAV Path I ended up way too high on the approach - but that happens if you don't use your own math to be ahead of the plane - so no big issue with the mod I think. What IS an issue imho is that Navaids seem to be hit or miss - at least for me. So I tuned most of the navaids along the route with the following results:

• SI (410) NDB: only shows when BRG SRC is set to ADF1, not showing on ADF2
• TRE (302) NDB: didn't show at all
• 115.75 FOL VOR: didn't show, no matter if BRG SRC was set to VOR1 or VOR2
• 113.60 CEV VOR: the same
• 108.80 RMN VOR: the same

Other NDB's/VOR's along the route were showing as expected. That corresponds with my earlier observations regarding 115.80 ALF VOR/DME not showing when tuned in for the ILS at EDDH. On a pre-patch flight from EGLC SND (363) NDB didn't display. Both are definitely in the MSFS database.

But apart from that, I'm having some great flights with "your CJ4", thanks a lot! (a decent IFR platform is so much more important now as looking out of the window tends to be awkward im many places due to the newly introduced elevation issues. Funny how they always find something to "entertain" us 😁)

Could I bother you to create issues on github? Create a separate issue for the LNAV steering - and if you can, include a link to the video. Would be great.

For the navaids, I tend to think that's something related to the sim handling range for different signals, since we can't control whether individual signals can be received or not, that's on the simulator side - if we can tune it, the sim is in control of whether we receive data to display on the pointers. That said, a second issue for all the navaid issues would be helpful and we can double check.

As far as I know, there actually isn't an ADF2, so that could be the problem there....but I could be wrong.

So, two issues on GH pretty please - the first for the LNAV steering and the second with all the navaid issues.

Thanks!

[cwburnett 1,809]

1 hour ago, Tom_L said:

Observations: during climb I had to change from FLC to VS because of porpoising when passing FL300, VS was then relatively more stable (+/- 500-1000ft/min

9 hours ago, JughedJones said:

No oscillating, seems to be flying smooth as silk.  Live weather and live traffic on. 

Yea, this is making it really hard to track down. I can't make mine porpoise, but I believe some people ARE having the problem - so I believe it exists, I just don't know how to troubleshoot. So, to anyone that experiences it, videos and details are greatly appreciated.

[Tom_L 533]

15 minutes ago, cwburnett said:

Yea, this is making it really hard to track down

My observations may be very well connected to Live weather creating turbulence. I will report back when I have logged some more hours. Github issues on their way.

[Gilandred 690]

1 hour ago, cwburnett said:

Yea, this is making it really hard to track down. I can't make mine porpoise, but I believe some people ARE having the problem - so I believe it exists, I just don't know how to troubleshoot. So, to anyone that experiences it, videos and details are greatly appreciated.

I noticed this today climbing out around FL200 from LOWI to the south.  As it was over the Alps there was quite a bit of turbulence, but the pitch up and down oscillation was more noticeable, at least to me, than in the past.  AP on and FLC 240kts on the climb, right crosswind but don’t recall the speed.  Once I hit my cruise altitude of FL290 it stopped.

[Flyfaster_MTN002 412]

2 hours ago, cwburnett said:

Yea, this is making it really hard to track down. I can't make mine porpoise, but I believe some people ARE having the problem - so I believe it exists, I just don't know how to troubleshoot. So, to anyone that experiences it, videos and details are greatly appreciated.

So you no longer think it is BARO related? Tried another last night and had it from FL180 to FL320 cruise. Sped up the sim and watched it bobbing at 4x speed is pretty funny. When coming into KJAC which was clear (and should have been OVC light snow according to the METAR) was smooth as silk.

[cwburnett 1,809]

1 hour ago, Flyfaster_MTN002 said:

So you no longer think it is BARO related? Tried another last night and had it from FL180 to FL320 cruise. Sped up the sim and watched it bobbing at 4x speed is pretty funny. When coming into KJAC which was clear (and should have been OVC light snow according to the METAR) was smooth as silk.

Oh, no I think abrupt pressure changes are a cause. I think abrupt wind changes are a cause. But it seems some are reporting even without those causes. Abrupt pressure changes will only negatively impact in cruise. Abrupt wind changes will only negatively impact in FLC. So different causes for different stages of flight for sure. A lot to normalize for.

[EDDB2020 35]

BARO related or not?

Reading this topic reminds me of my github topic about that violent bump 200 ft above my final altitude when establishing height for the ILS https://github.com/Working-Title-MSFS-Mods/fspackages/issues/671

Had that today again and as far as I remember there was no wind involved and the wind direction indicator showed no sudden gusts. I will try to reproduce it tomorrow with a clear weather preset, default pressure and no wind at all. Maybe I can make video.

Never experienced it with 0.8.0, came with 0.8.1 and is still there with 0.8.2.

Anyway, this MOD makes me happy, thank you for your efforts!!!

[Novej757 83]

RAISES HAND FOR EXPERIENCING OSCILLATIONS!!!

Some of you may know me from the CJ2+ and Phoenix Phenom 100E mods for FSX/P3D.  If so you know I can be very long winded and too detailed.  Sorry. I'll try to keep this short. (EDIT i failed)

Devs an example flight I'm experiencing it on is KGEU FTHLS6 ABQ J18 FTI J19 LBL J134 ICT J26 FRACA DRIVL KCOU

Departs at 1330 local with live weather

Now here's how I load the aircraft... I'll explain my rationale because I can see your "???????" 

Pilot1: 0lbs, Pilot 2: 0lbs, Pax 1: 180lbs, Pax 2: 240lbs, Pax 3: 230lbs, Pax 4:190lbs, Pax 5: 325lbs, Rear bags ~*100lbs *(whatever gets weight right at MTOW with 305 gals in both wings)

I do this because though I get why, the weight station loading is not good.  A few things are very clear.  Whoever designed the flight model has little clue how the CG is on the actual aircraft (Cessna ensures this info is not easy to find), they didn't research passenger and cargo payloading for the CJ4 and I'm pretty sure they didn't test different passenger configurations to see how it effects CG on this model.  For example passenger 1 and 2  are seated right on top of the cg point, passenger 3 and 4 are positioned 3.6 feet ahead of the cg point. Passenger 5 is seated half a foot behind the CG point.  The pilots are positioned 17.5 feet ahead of the cg point and the rear bags are placed 10 feet behind the CG point. CG of the actual aircraft is located close to the main gear (don't forget weight of engines) I'm not sure where Asobo placed it. But the CJ4 cabin total length is only ~17.5ft. 

You ever notice how sensitive the CJ4 elevators can be when hand flying approaches even when lightly loaded? The reason for this is the weight of the pilots sitting way out there on that 17.5 foot lever arm (especially when your fuel is low) has effectively pulled the aircraft out its nominal cg range.  The CJ is much easier to land with a neutral cg at landing....this is why I don't load pilot weights.

So whats this have to do with oscillations. Well I have found FOR ME even with neutral cg loading...a combination of these things seem to bring on the porpoising (only in version 8.2):

Climbing via FLC mode (240kts/.64 climb schedule) at ~FL250+ near MTOW while experiencing High Tailwinds/crosswinds blowing from behind the aircraft with Live Weather, medium to heavy Turbulence from Live Weather. I have not tested with headwinds yet.

I've tried fixing these values in the flight model configurations but it strangely had no effect in the sim.  As in even the payload page didn't change for me 🤔

All this to say AP trim and elevator effectiveness are especially important to this CJ4. Maybe Working title can try removing that pitch pid Asobo added to see if it helps us...(shrug)  I'll cut this er "short" here...sorry.

 

EDIT I have also had the sudden baro changes in the Flight levels recently but the aircraft is good at climbing;or descending to the set altitude with out the porpoising...ATC isn't always happy about it though.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Novej757

[cwburnett 1,809]

1 hour ago, Novej757 said:

RAISES HAND FOR EXPERIENCING OSCILLATIONS!!!

Thanks for the details, you might enjoy stopping in to the discord server as there's some discussion of this there as well.

We are doing two things. First, a custom flight model is being tested and refined, including resolving some CG issues and other aerodynamic and handling issues.

In the meantime, 0.8.3 is being prepped as we speak with a more temporary fix for the oscillating that should return performance from prior to the patch.

We always welcome input and we're discussing potentially releasing the custom FM for review and testing possibly as early as next week.

[MattNischan 3,778]

Hey all,

CJ4 v0.8.3 is up, which should remedy the pitch oscillations, and also contains a couple other fixes as well.

You can grab it here: https://github.com/Working-Title-MSFS-Mods/fspackages/releases/tag/cj4-v0.8.3

-Matt

[Flyfaster_MTN002 412]

25 minutes ago, MattNischan said:

Hey all,

CJ4 v0.8.3 is up, which should remedy the pitch oscillations, and also contains a couple other fixes as well.

You can grab it here: https://github.com/Working-Title-MSFS-Mods/fspackages/releases/tag/cj4-v0.8.3

-Matt

Incredible way to go guys! FYI VNAV on the arrival to RNAV 27-Z to KSAN kept undershooting the GP and did not level off at the MAP properly. Have any of you seen this also?

[FlyingInACessna 656]

1 hour ago, Flyfaster_MTN002 said:

Incredible way to go guys! FYI VNAV on the arrival to RNAV 27-Z to KSAN kept undershooting the GP and did not level off at the MAP properly. Have any of you seen this also?

I had a similar issue once at KCRQ but it was a one-time thing. It didn’t show the glideslope indicator on the PFD though, and that was alarming.

[cwburnett 1,809]

3 hours ago, Flyfaster_MTN002 said:

Incredible way to go guys! FYI VNAV on the arrival to RNAV 27-Z to KSAN kept undershooting the GP and did not level off at the MAP properly. Have any of you seen this also?

Being under GS/GP is a problem we're trying to understand better. Generally GP is better than GS, but isn't perfect.

But as of now GP won't stop descent automatically at the MAP. PIC needs to make sure that happens.

[sd_flyer 6,042]

Trying latest update. Absolutely stunning plus ITT now works!