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For what it's worth, 3D grass is on the to-do list, but not for 12.0. We have some good ideas for how to implement it nicely, so users don't have to place grass polygons everywhere like with forests and can just let the GPU extrude the grass. But that's a feature for another day. The new forest engine while really good at forests, unfortunately would do a terrible job for grass, which has much higher density and much lower per object polygon count.

A quote from Sidney

3 hours ago, GoranM said:

I think you're taking this DRM thing way too far.  You're misinterpreting the DRM's intent and purpose, by assuming we're accusing EVERYONE that they MIGHT be a thief.  I've dealt with 12 year olds who pirated my add ons.  I've dealt with ex military personnel.  A developer.  3 streamers.  

Well, dragging this specifically to the topic (Please continue this in another thread rather than getting this one locked, its worth talking about but really has very little to do with this topic):

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Ben Supnik says:

September 29, 2021 at 9:35 am

X-Plane 11 keys purchased now WILL NOT enable x-plane 12. We are not selling X-Plane 12 right now.

Thomson is planning on having the first set of X-Plane 12 keys (during “early access”, which is to say, public beta) be dual keys – those are v12 keys that happen to also unlock X-Plane 11.

On DRM specifically, it seems to me that following the Ubuntu revelations, jarmstro read more on the GNU philosophy of software, they are worth a read

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/opposing-drm.en.html

https://www.defectivebydesign.org/

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Here are examples of proprietary programs and systems that implement digital restrictions management (DRM): functionalities designed intentionally to restrict what users can do. These functionalities are also called digital handcuffs.

DRM is reinforced by censorship laws that ban software (and hardware) that can break the handcuffs. Instead of these laws, DRM itself ought to be illegal. Please support our campaign to abolish DRM.

X-Plane as an application is very much on the right side of that Philosophy which looks to keep four basic freedoms:

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The GNU GPL, of all the free software licenses, is the one that most fully embodies the values and aims of the free software movement, by ensuring the four fundamental freedoms for every user. These are freedoms to 0) run the program as you wish; 1) study the source code and change it to do what you wish; 2) make and distribute copies, when you wish; 3) and distribute modified versions, when you wish.

With

0) run the program as you wish;

Entertainment and commercial use are fully supported, You can run completely full unadulterated versions without paying anything completely legally.

1) study the source code and change it to do what you wish

https://developer.x-plane.com/sdk/

https://developer.x-plane.com/2018/08/art-controls-are-for-hacking/

2)make and distribute copies, when you wish;

They are incredibly lenient in that respect, which makes the Sparky744 possible.

3) and distribute modified versions, when you wish.

No limits on where or how you distribute your X-Plane developments

____

Full GNU it is not, but as a rule DRM targets ripping away those rights while doing absolutely nothing to prevent piracy. XP DRM is more about guiding developers and users to behave appropriately and foster a healthy development environment, if they didn't have that philosophy they would have died along with most every other flight sim software well before getting to this keynote.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by mSparks

I don't really want this to drag on any more than it has to, but I'll address this one more item.

@mSparks If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying DRM should be abolished and X-Plane doesn't have DRM based on the 3 points you mentioned.

The X-Plane source code is NOT available to the public.  That, I can assure you.  The SDK is not the source code.  The SDK is a kit that allows developers to create their own additions within the software.  Hence, some datarefs are writeable, and some are not.  Full access to the source code would mean you could change anything and everything within X-Plane to the point where it could be changed to a farm simulator.

This part here...

43 minutes ago, mSparks said:

These functionalities are also called digital handcuffs.

DRM is reinforced by censorship laws that ban software (and hardware) that can break the handcuffs. Instead of these laws, DRM itself ought to be illegal. Please support our campaign to abolish DRM.

Is just rubbish.  People who buy add ons do not OWN the add on.  They own a license to run the add on within the scope of the terms and conditions of the vendor.  The DRM ensures those terms and conditions are adhered to.  I'm still shocked to see how many people think that when they buy an add on, they actually own the add on.  Unless the license says so, this has never been the case since add ons first came out.  Not just add ons, but software in general.  If an individual owns the software, it means they have unrestricted access to all files and code involved in creating the software.  

And if what I just said is a misinterpretation of your post, then disregard.  I've been animating something for the past 3 days, and my brain is spaghetti.

Back on topic, please!  Before this thread gets locked.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by GoranM

It will never end back on topic XPLANe may or the complainers stop complain and go write there own perfect sim that the rest of the world can complain about. Sad @GoranM but we where bought up at a time when you had to earn what you got, now its demanded and expected. Just like that song, "you dont know what you have got till its gone".

9 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

It will never end back on topic XPLANe may or the complainers stop complain and go write there own perfect sim that the rest of the world can complain about. Sad @GoranM but we where bought up at a time when you had to earn what you got, now its demanded and expected. Just like that song, "you dont know what you have got till its gone".

Locking threads is becoming the norm.  In a way, I can imagine the mods frustration, but in another way, well, let's just say I'd better not say anything if I can't say anything nice.

Put it this way, if DRM was made illegal tonight, I would be looking for a new job by tomorrow morning.  I would literally, and voluntarily quit making add ons.  I know developers who have lost their house, and their marriage break down over loss of income in the flight sim developer community.

 

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by GoranM

23 minutes ago, GoranM said:

mSparks If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying DRM should be abolished and X-Plane doesn't have DRM based on the 3 points you mentioned

I generally abolished DRM for myself. I dont buy or use any software that fundamentally restricts those freedoms on the premise I might be a thief, and havent for more than a decade. Plenty of software that doesnt to occupy my time with and do the things I want.

The groundswell of people who do the same has basically killed windows as a viable operating system.

23 minutes ago, GoranM said:

People who buy add ons do not OWN the add on.

Thats the fundamental philosophical difference. Im not interested in renting software, quite surprised as a developer you are OK with doing so. Or is it double standards? You dont want to rent software but expect other people should be fine with it?

23 minutes ago, GoranM said:

The X-Plane source code is NOT available to the public.

Its not about "public sourcecode" its a philosophical and ethical concept. Life is not black and white. xplane drm restricts the right to throw around free copies of xplane to anyone who wants it to 15 minutes use. zibo drm stops you replacing the godawful cockpit textures.

The first is OK with me and Im happy to pay them to remove the timer, the second I wouldnt have to pay for but I dont want anywhere near my computers.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by mSparks

13 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Im not interested in renting software

You're not renting software.  Renting it would mean you're paying a weekly/monthly/yearly fee to be able to run it.  Like I said, you pay a 1 time cost for a license to run the software on your PC according to the terms and conditions.  You own the license.  Not the add on.

13 minutes ago, mSparks said:

quite surprised as a developer you are OK with doing so. Or is it double standards? You dont want to rent software but expect other people should be fine with it?

My list of software I use for everyday tasks.

Microsoft Office $100/year

Modo - I was on a subscription model, but then paid for a perpetual license.  

Adobe Suite (Substance suite, Photoshop, Lightroom) - $30/mth

Tower Git - $75/year

Affinity Suite - Paid for a license that stipulates I am not to share it with other users, as well as not having access to the source code.

Blender - Open Source with access to the source code.  

I have more, but you get the picture.  So yes, I am perfectly fine with paying monthly fees to access software and support from the creators.

13 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Its not about "public sourcecode" its a philosophical and ethical concept.

Ethics doesn't pay bills.  If I want or need software, I pay for it under the conditions outlined to me prior to purchase.  If I don't like the conditions, I don't pay for it.  But then my productivity suffers to the point I won't get any work done.  

EDIT:  Just a few more.

Backblaze backup solution - $10/mth

Dropbox - $15/mth

 

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by GoranM

15 minutes ago, mSparks said:

The groundswell of people who do the same has basically killed windows as a viable operating system.

Funny considering the number of people who use windows. You cant let it go can you. I like linux but its still not that simple to use for teh average guy and never will be.

18 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Its not about "public sourcecode" its a philosophical and ethical concept

I work I expect to get paid for the work I do thats the ethical part, of course if you choose to do everything for free cause you got rich parents and dont need anyone elses money, than all you say means nothing. Now for the last time back to xplane.

If this topic gets closed can the mods please delete my account i am seriously running out of reason to come here.

14 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Renting it would mean you're paying a weekly/monthly/yearly fee to be able to run it.

nope the difference between renting and buying is the rights you have, not whether you pay NPV in one go or over time.

5 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

I work I expect to get paid for the work I do

Exactly how GNU works. treats software as a service oriented industry rather than a property oriented one. 

So you get paid for the work you do, rather than earn rent from the work you [other people] did.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by mSparks

1 minute ago, mSparks said:

nope the difference between renting and buying is the rights you have, not whether you pay NPV in one go or over time.

Agree to disagree.  

Back on topic...for the 3rd time.

Keep on topic please. X-Plane is the topic and nothing else.

25 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Agree to disagree.  

I dont think we disagree, I think you've just not thought it through.

One way or another DRM imposes a time limit on your purchase, it may not be a clearly defined time limit (e.g. life of the Laminar activation servers) or it might be (e.g. netflix). Its whole purpose is to artificially impose cost on something that costs nothing (making copies of software) along with artificially removing the rights you would get by owning something (modifying it, even for personal use).

That is simply unethical rent seeking, blaming other peoples bad behavior doesnt make it ethical, there are much better alternatives, and using it sparingly for information purposes like Laminar do is completely different to what a number of xplane devs making a good living off of Laminars hard work are willing to offer, mostly imho as a result of propaganda pushed by the music industry and microsoft over the last couple of decades rather than rationally thinking through their preferred position.

Ill leave it there. please if someone wants to continue this, quote me in a new thread.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by mSparks

Goran: I mentioned de icing equipment yesterday for X Plane   Snow removal? Just a thought.

One of the strong points of XP11 is the thousands of very acceptable default airports and the scenery gateway system. I presume they will all just be carried over to XP12? Or will they? What improvements can we expect to see with regard to the default airports in XP12? Will improved assets be automatically applied?

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by jarmstro