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Another important part of my decision is support. I am not exaggerating when I say nearly 80% or more of my support time for P3D and FSX has nothing to do with my work. It is usually a flight sim issue, or connected to ORBX,SODE or GSX.

Well, just because that's not an issue in MSFS now, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Once more add-ons appear for MSFS, you can be sure that compatibility problems, conflicts and more generally, end users doing the wrong thing, will create plenty of support tickets in the future.

6 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

His point about ease of development inside the sim is a strong one that LM would do well to reflect on, and quickly.

Good point. How can developers be expected to stick around to create products for a smaller market, when the development time is also longer?
 

For me uk2000 products, and I own almost all of them  for P3D and XP , will always represent a very special almost cottage industry style that was so much a feature in the earlier days of U.K. flight simulation. They were halcyon days !

I remember visiting Gary’s  table at the various flight sim shows around the country and walking away with a bag full of CDs in home printed cases. Or I’d buy new releases from the website and a few days later they’d arrive through the post.

I’ve just read his post and this was my reply...

Gary, your post needs to be read by LM. It should serve as a wake up call that tinkering with the ESP engine cannot be justified any longer.

They need to up their game and use modern software methods to make scenery designing as easy as it now appears to be in MSFS.

You have given me a compelling reason to consider switching to MSFS at a future date once it’s a more stable product. Clearly it is for airport design but has some way to go before the same can be said for aircraft.

I wish you well in both your personal and professional life and hopefully one day in the not too distant future I can buy your products for MSFS.

It’s a real eye-opener highlighting how difficult it is for him to use an ageing engine to design scenery. The ESP engine has lasted well but maybe it’s now time to draw a line under it and switch to a modern system. We all know airports from some developers can look great in P3D but at a significant performance hit.

Maybe this will be the kick up the backside that will convince LM to consider how P3D development should go.

 

4 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

airports from some developers can look great in P3D but at a significant performance hit.

Some look great without a significant performance hit.

7 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

It’s a real eye-opener highlighting how difficult it is for him to use an ageing engine to design scenery.

Remember it's not all on LM, while they could absolutely improve the development workflow in some ways, Gary developed his products with bespoke software written by himself, using a workflow he created.  A proportion of any difficulty he faced was created by himself.  You dont see those devs still creating for P3D in decent quality complaining about their workflow...  Maybe they are just keeping it to themselves, but Gary's issues are clearly in part self inflicted.

1 minute ago, d.tsakiris said:

Some look great without a significant performance hit.

Agreed but care to name them? Remember if you have AIG Ai that also imposes a hit but that’s not the airport designers fault of course.

1 minute ago, kevinfirth said:

Remember it's not all on LM, while they could absolutely improve the development workflow in some ways, Gary developed his products with bespoke software written by himself, using a workflow he created.  A proportion of any difficulty he faced was created by himself.  You dont see those devs still creating for P3D in decent quality complaining about their workflow...  Maybe they are just keeping it to themselves, but Gary's issues are clearly in part self inflicted.

Maybe he did that as it was the cheapest option. Who knows how much it costs for the tools FlyTampa et al pay.

When you compare his prices to others his are cheaper as the airports are ‘simpler’ but he sells direct which also helps.

I have already replaced some of my UK2000 P3D airports with other developers scenery, in MSFS Asobo have been updating UK airport`s in the sim in the last big update i found in the deluxe version, but you need to update the UK region to get it, this is why i have no intension buying addons for MSFS as Asobo are still developing the scenery and will likely do so for the next few years. In a few years some may find Asobo airports are as good as and more up to date than some addon airports and need not have purchased them, and like other sims you will end up with more than one developer doing an airport, this is why I think developers are rushing to there scenery out first.   

All platform has challenges.. for an instance MSFS will enforce a LOD (minimum 3 LODs per object) and with specific number of vertices for each LOD. This means scenery developers for MSFS will need to step their game, each building, each taxi sign, each fence,each truck service, each parked car, etc. will require to have these 3 LOD objects configuration and in line with the required number of vertices.

Failing to comply means, these objects will be CULLED OUT of the screen..

So.. I am looking eagerly how scenery developers (including freeware developers) who have already released many sceneries for MSFS will deal with this substantial upcoming change.. they have been told by Asobo / Microsoft since SU5.. we are at SU7.. many haven't implemented any of these changes.. they can't complain when stuff go kaput suddenly next year.. they have been warned very well this time..

You need to understand this causes a big workload, if an airport has 2000 3D objects that you want to be visible from 6NM out.. you need to create 3 LODs per each.. that is a total of 6,000 3D objects to build and deal with inside your 3Ds model tool.. aka blender or 3DS Max.

and if you have 10 airports already released.. well.. do the maths chaps..

S.

Edited December 16, 20214 yr by simbol

31 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Who knows how much it costs for the tools FlyTampa et al pay.

3DS Max costs just shy of £2k licence fees per annum inc VAT

11 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

3DS Max costs just shy of £2k licence fees per annum inc VAT

With that annual overhead you wonder how much longer they’ll made airports for P3D. Unless the same tool can be used for MSFS.

I’m not suddenly changing sides. Just looking at things objectively. The MSFS version of some P3D airports do look very impressive.

3 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

With that annual overhead you wonder how much longer they’ll made airports for P3D. Unless the same tool can be used for MSFS.

I’m not suddenly changing sides. Just looking at things objectively. The MSFS version of some P3D airports do look very impressive.

3DS or Blender can be used for P3D, MSFS and XP..

S.

18 minutes ago, simbol said:

3DS or Blender can be used for P3D, MSFS and XP..

S.

Yes but if you do not get your addon out first someone else may do it, and when Asobo finish the development of MSFS what`s to stop them doing payware addons for MSFS after all they are an independent game developer company.

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In general, there are no big support issues and certainly not yet any compatibility issues with other add-ons due to the simple method of adding on scenery in MSFS. (Lockheed Martin please take note, All you have to do is drag a folder in!)

Didn't UK 2000 use the addon xml method of installation for their recent sceneries? It's pretty much the same thing. 

24 minutes ago, FrankSalo said:

Didn't UK 2000 use the addon xml method of installation for their recent sceneries? It's pretty much the same thing. 

Yes, the LM xml method actually provides a bit more flexibility in that it permits assets to be introduced from any location, whereas the MSFS community folder is one fixed location.

1 hour ago, simbol said:

3DS or Blender can be used for P3D, MSFS and XP..

S.

I defer to my honourable friend, who I know is vastly more knowledgeable thane me regarding these matters!

I note the 5.3 release info specifically references 3dsMax:

• Improvements to sloped airport creation including exportable shape files from 3dsMax files allowing for terrain modification, projection polygons for sloped aprons, and improved taxiway and apron intersections

What about any other software required, for example for PBR? 

I also recall there was something in P3D v5.3 about developer views in sim?  Is this relevant here? Perhaps Gary is abandoning P3D development just as the capacity he bemoans the lack of is being implemented?

Edited December 16, 20214 yr by kevinfirth