PMDG update[11 jan]

[EasternT3 74]

23 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

.then proof me of that with evidence

Marcus, if you are a simmer who’s been around for a long time, like at a lot of us then you should know that not having study level aircraft 2 years after a release of a sim is normal. FSX released in ‘06, the NGX released in ‘11, the hotstart 650 was in dev for 3 years, FSLabs took a number of years, study level aircraft don’t release overnight, sooner you learn that the better.

 

30 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

due the fact the SDK is still lacking (I have contact to several well known developers who ARE not able to build efficiently or some things NOT at all).

 

23 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

The SDK is complete (was the main sentence a year ago.......yeah......why we miss parts all of the sudden?)

 Which developers are those? As far as I am aware no-one is complaining about the SDK anymore, (bar the wx and tx APIs) let’s not forget it’s 2022, not 2020. PMDG aren’t saying this is due to the SDK, it’s due to the platform itself, “So in reality, he knows nothing about what I'm talking about, yet he is confident enough in his lack of knowledge to mis-attribute the blocker I referred to as being SDK related when in fact I mentioned specifically it was platform side...” 

Also - this isn’t aimed at you but the thread in general, I think the entire situation has been blown out of proportion, RSR (rightly or wrongly) is frustrated because there’s one final hurdle to testing and releasing the 737, Asobo and PMDG have worked closely for so long and I get how it would be frustrating that Asobo has helped them with everything else but the one thing that’s needed for release has happened yet for what every reason.

 “I think you miss the larger point. (perhaps intentionally?) I sing Asobo's praises nearly constantly. I have for some time now. We work with a handful of folks there on a broad range of issues all week long. As I have said 5,000 times in this forum, they are a big company and they have a very broad range of things on their plate. PMDG is not the most important agenda item they face every morning when they wake up. We ask for help- and on many items we get it. On this particular item- they have been unable to provide it. Unfortunately- this one item hangs up the 737 and makes us unable to move the product into testing, which means that each day we move our ETA out another day. I think you have misconstrued candor with "Crying" or "calling Asobo out." The folks we work with at Asobo are probably as sick of me asking about this item as we are of asking. One day, they will have enough free bandwidth work this through and tell us they agree with our assessment of what it will take to fix it, or they will tell us we are wrong and point out where we can change the product to flow around the problem. Either way- we need that day and our entire development agenda on three product lines is in limbo while we wait- so I'm sorry if my frustration shows sometimes. It has been a looooong process to get this far. We have been working around the blocker for long enough that work is slowing to a stop because we need this item cleared in order to continue. Oh- and lest you think my comment here is not news to them, I remind them we are waiting at the start of practically every week- including this one. Like I said: They are probably more sick of me asking that I am... There is a lot less drama in the world than you perceive”

And

“I don't think it is fair to say that Asobo is not supporting PMDG or 3rd party developers. They are. 

Asobo is a very large company with a very big task before it. We are constantly feeding them a mix of questions, bug reports and requests for assistance understanding things that are not documented or insufficiently documented. We have a normal discourse of information back and forth. What is different about our development is that we are the most complicated and highly customized aircraft to be moved through the C++/WASM development process to date, so we are hitting things that other developers working with less heavily customized C++ projects or JS based projects are not.

One of those things is blocking the 737 from making forward progress, and has been for a while. Asobo has not had time to sit with us and go through this item to determine what it is or whether or not our assessment of it's impact is valid. Meanwhile we have spent the time chipping away at other areas around the blocker- in hopes that they will have the bandwidth to sit down with us and work out a solution, or provide some ideas that might be appropriate to try.

We are obviously, eagerly awaiting that opportunity, and I nag at them incessantly in hopes that one of these days they will reply with "yes- lets do that now." So far that hasn't happened.

So please don't construe my frustration with our inability to make progress as "Asobo being a bad-actor." Asobo is trying to support a couple hundred developers while maintaining their own development agenda.”

[mtaxp 666]

2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

You misunderstand something though.  The cheaper DLC, such as sceneries, are only sold if flight simmers install MSFS.  There are still a lot of flight simmers who demand :"study level" airliners that haven't purchased or installed MSFS.  They are still using P3D and XP.  By making MSFS friendly enough for study level airliners to be introduced into MSFS, not only will PMDG come in, but other companies like Leonardo Softwarehouse (Maddog), Quality Wings, etc, will also release their airliners for MSFS, which will draw these users from P3D and XP that are not using MSFS.  Once those users from P3D and XP are in MSFS, they will start purchasing the "cheap dlc" you mention.

For some reason it sounds like you are under the assumption that MSFS will fix everything needed in a matter of few weeks while competition is standing still. Even if the always mentioned FENIX A320 will come TOMORROW and not in a few months in the best case, this won't change the fact that it'll take YEARS for MSFS to have a solid fleet as others for a simple reason: study level aircrafts take years to to develop.

Currently the gap is even wider than it was a year and a half ago (study level addons wise) as x-plane is in a state of study level aircrafts explosion setting new standards of home simulation and more are pending. Also don't count on x-plane 12 to start from a clean slate, most developers already have alphas and are working on updates, LR are working hard to maintain backward compatibility (OpenGL bridge remains in v12). 

So my point is, if those users *already* have what they want, and in x-plane 12 the whole MSFS graphics parade and gap from the competition will finally be put to rest, what remains for MSFSs favor? Melty Photogrammetry?

Edited January 17, 2022 by mtaxp

[abrams_tank 7,423]

Randazzo also clarified his comments about the issues with Asobo:

Quote

Saygin- I think you miss the larger point. (perhaps intentionally?) I sing Asobo's praises nearly constantly. I have for some time now. We work with a handful of folks there on a broad range of issues all week long. As I have said 5,000 times in this forum, they are a big company and they have a very broad range of things on their plate. PMDG is not the most important agenda item they face every morning when they wake up. We ask for help- and on many items we get it. On this particular item- they have been unable to provide it. Unfortunately- this one item hangs up the 737 and makes us unable to move the product into testing, which means that each day we move our ETA out another day. I think you have misconstrued candor with "Crying" or "calling Asobo out." The folks we work with at Asobo are probably as sick of me asking about this item as we are of asking. One day, they will have enough free bandwidth work this through and tell us they agree with our assessment of what it will take to fix it, or they will tell us we are wrong and point out where we can change the product to flow around the problem. Either way- we need that day and our entire development agenda on three product lines is in limbo while we wait- so I'm sorry if my frustration shows sometimes. It has been a looooong process to get this far. We have been working around the blocker for long enough that work is slowing to a stop because we need this item cleared in order to continue. Oh- and lest you think my comment here is not news to them, I remind them we are waiting at the start of practically every week- including this one. Like I said: They are probably more sick of me asking that I am... There is a lot less drama in the world than you perceive, Saygin.

 

And this clarification from Randazzo:

Quote

I appreciate the sentiment- but I don't think it is fair to say that Asobo is not supporting PMDG or 3rd party developers. They are.

Asobo is a very large company with a very big task before it. We are constantly feeding them a mix of questions, bug reports and requests for assistance understanding things that are not documented or insufficiently documented. We have a normal discourse of information back and forth. What is different about our development is that we are the most complicated and highly customized aircraft to be moved through the C++/WASM development process to date, so we are hitting things that other developers working with less heavily customized C++ projects or JS based projects are not.

One of those things is blocking the 737 from making forward progress, and has been for a while. Asobo has not had time to sit with us and go through this item to determine what it is or whether or not our assessment of it's impact is valid. Meanwhile we have spent the time chipping away at other areas around the blocker- in hopes that they will have the bandwidth to sit down with us and work out a solution, or provide some ideas that might be appropriate to try.

We are obviously, eagerly awaiting that opportunity, and I nag at them incessantly in hopes that one of these days they will reply with "yes- lets do that now." So far that hasn't happened.

So please don't construe my frustration with our inability to make progress as "Asobo being a bad-actor." Asobo is trying to support a couple hundred developers while maintaining their own development agenda.

TLDR: Asobo has been making changes for PMDG in the last year and a half so that PMDG can get their study level airliners into MSFS.  However, because of other priorities such as SU8 (and perhaps employees leaving for Christmas holidays), Asobo hasn't had a chance to sit down to discuss one particular problem with PMDG. Asobo will probably get to this problem once their plate clears up (ie. the release of SU8).

Edited January 17, 2022 by abrams_tank

[mpo910 2,112]

4 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Randazzo also clarified his comments about the issues with Asobo:

 

And this clarification from Randazzo:

TLDR: Asobo has been making changes for PMDG in the last year and a half so that PMDG can get their study level airliners into MSFS.  However, because of other priorities such as SU8 (and perhaps employees leaving for Christmas holidays), Asobo hasn't had a chance to sit down to discuss one particular problem with PMDG. Asobo will probably get to this problem once their plate clears up (ie. the release of SU8).

You do NOT have to convince me, it won't work. 

When the Study level planes release, then I will try them and see if they work for me too....THAT is the next step for me.

I don't believe Marketing. Especially not from Aerosoft, PMDG and Microsoft. 

[abrams_tank 7,423]

2 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

You do NOT have to convince me, it won't work. 

When the Study level planes release, then I will try them and see if they work for me too....THAT is the next step for me.

I don't believe Marketing. Especially not from Aerosoft, PMDG and Microsoft. 

My post wasn't directed at you. It was for everyone else who wanted more information on Randazzo's clarification.  Not sure why you think I am trying to convince you when my last post about Randazzo's comments didn't even mention you at all.

[EasternT3 74]

10 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

TLDR: Asobo has been making changes for PMDG in the last year and a half so that PMDG can get their study level airliners into MSFS.  However, because of other priorities such as SU8 (and perhaps employees leaving for Christmas holidays), Asobo hasn't had a chance to sit down to discuss one particular problem with PMDG. Asobo will probably get to this problem once their plate clears up (ie. the release of SU8).

That is the entire issue in a nutshell, Asobo do help, however there’s one issue, it has probably fallen at the wrong time with Xmas and SU8, but unfortunately the one issue blocks the release, which is why you can understand frustration by RSR,

[Rocky_53 1,579]

1 hour ago, EasternT3 said:

Obviously you believe the cr*p you’re saying…giving you credit it’s giving me a good laugh on a Monday morning

I find the tone of posts like this rather arrogant and misplaced on a forum such as Avsim. Perhaps I could respectfully suggest you engage in a more grown uo manner rather than telling people they are talking cr*p. Everyone has their right to an opinion. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your's, doesn't mean it's cr*p.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Rockliffe

[harrry 322]

Some of this could be cultural.  US has short annual leave and maybe one day off for christmas so they do not have the long shutdowns Europe or Australia has over Christmas New year and more as people take their annual leave added to the holiday days and have a month or more of holidays.

I think there will be a time that companies have to realise that with worldwide customers and suppliers they have to start thinking of themselves like "essential"services do and keep 24hr 7 days a week operation with any breaks and holidays staggered so that a full range of staff is available at all times so the questions PMDG seem to have can be handled and not put off to the future as there are not the right people to provide prompt answers. 

[WestAir 2,522]

2 minutes ago, harrry said:

Some of this could be cultural.  US has short annual leave and maybe one day off for christmas so they do not have the long shutdowns Europe or Australia has over Christmas New year and more as people take their annual leave added to the holiday days and have a month or more of holidays.

I think there will be a time that companies have to realise that with worldwide customers and suppliers they have to start thinking of themselves like "essential"services do and keep 24hr 7 days a week operation with any breaks and holidays staggered so that a full range of staff is available at all times so the questions PMDG seem to have can be handled and not put off to the future as there are not the right people to provide prompt answers. 

As an American, I never even considered the cultural differences here and I think you're right. Personally I'd love to see World Wide businesses go the other direction, and encourage more time off. In the States we live to work instead of working to live, and I'm envious of other Countries that put value into living the short life one has.

[Simple B 141]

27 minutes ago, harrry said:

Some of this could be cultural.  US has short annual leave and maybe one day off for christmas so they do not have the long shutdowns Europe or Australia has over Christmas New year and more as people take their annual leave added to the holiday days and have a month or more of holidays.

I think there will be a time that companies have to realise that with worldwide customers and suppliers they have to start thinking of themselves like "essential"services do and keep 24hr 7 days a week operation with any breaks and holidays staggered so that a full range of staff is available at all times so the questions PMDG seem to have can be handled and not put off to the future as there are not the right people to provide prompt answers. 

24/7 365, Essential services ... 😆

Most essential services, have a massive cost implication and are essential for humans to maintain a safe existance.

Many essential services, run a very reduced level of cover out of regular hours/days for provision of minimal/basic cover,  while major disasters are assisted by staff on call, regular service only returns in regular working time.

Work life balance is a very essential to one's future health and well being, France has embraced this notion, they have 25 days minimum holiday allowance plus 12 days public holidays and a fixed 35 hour working week, this is something we should all aspire to achieve...

 

[March Hare 720]

Yeah, a simulator and add-on aircraft are not essential services.

[harrry 322]

iJust what I said....so because France stops poor old PMDG must keep its developers sitting there on hold for an indefinite period as those in that country ignore the rest of the world and have their french leave.

[harrry 322]

1 minute ago, March Hare said:

Yeah, a simulator and add-on aircraft are not essential services.

World trade is....and commerce can no longer wait weeks for answers or parts.   If  a truck breaks down a part is needed immediately and now trade is such that items can cross the world in a couple of days.  With world trade the whole of commerce is essential to meet todays needs as whole businesses such as PMDG cannot just stop and wait for months because a few wnt to spend their time on the Piste..

[EasternT3 74]

1 hour ago, Rockliffe said:

I find the tone of posts like this rather arrogant and misplaced on a forum such as Avsim. Perhaps I could respectfully suggest you engage in a more grown uo manner rather than telling people they are talking cr*p. Everyone has their right to an opinion. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your's, doesn't mean it's cr*p.

Howard, with all due respect, avsim is full of misplaced comments, look at this thread for example, this thread should solely be about the NG3 yet with many MSFS threads it’s interjected by P3D and XPL (or anti-MSFS) users, where I find that misplaced.

Respectfully I am grown up, and have found in life that when someone is talking cr*p they need to be called out for it, whether it’s an opinion or whether they are stating it as a fact, and that’s what was happening, the person I was talking to stated there’s no study level airliners in MSFS because of a lacking SDK and he says he knows that from contact with developers, in which I replied saying that the lacking SDK excuse was no longer valid and asked which developers were still saying that, to which he never responded, or has provide proof behind his opinions/claims, I wonder why…

[Amon1973 1,421]

1 hour ago, WestAir said:

As an American, I never even considered the cultural differences here and I think you're right. Personally I'd love to see World Wide businesses go the other direction, and encourage more time off. In the States we live to work instead of working to live, and I'm envious of other Countries that put value into living the short life one has.

Just as an example I'm British and I had holidays I had to take or lose so from about 9th December I was off work (Rolls Royce) on holiday until the 5th of January I was back for a few days then been off work with Covid, and I'm still in isolation, Asobo could well be in a similar situation with some of it's staff.