6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I'll add another. Any scenery or aircraft purchased via the Marketplace is encrypted making even AFCAD changes impossible. Why do they do that? It seems counter-productive.

Then don't buy it off the marketplace. Almost every single plane and airport is available via third party stores, per usual or the developer's own store. 

 

22 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

It's a personal decision and one I have chewed over for a long time. There is also the gut feeling and that also holds me back. I wouldn't rule it out for VFR flights - it's ideal for that but I'm primarily an IFR pilot.

I'm not aware the PMDG737 flies any better in MSFS than P3D but point me to the evidence and I'll read it.

"Certain functionality" includes some critical things previously mentioned. I'll add another. Any scenery or aircraft purchased via the Marketplace is encrypted making even AFCAD changes impossible. Why do they do that? It seems counter-productive.

Point me to where I said the PMDG 737 flies any better?  If you want to get into that debate then yes, we can bring in the real world pilots that have flown it in both sims but I'm not sure where that comment even came from..  It already has better LNAV/VNAV in MSFS so technically it should fly better though.   LNAV/VNAV 2.0 should make it to P3D eventually though.  Again, the insinuation that MSFS is good for VFR but because you are an IFR pilot MSFS is no good?  Just flat out untrue and only going to lead to people arguing.

Also, I believe one of the recent updates addressed encrypted .cfg files at least for aircraft so Asobo addressed that.  

Ray, I completely respect and understand your position, I agree with it entirely!!  I'm in P3D right now in the QW787 because there is no equivalent 787 in MSFS.  I acknowledged there are reasons people can't move but you seem intent on giving reasons MSFS is no good.  Not no good for you but no good like your marketplace example.  You want to beat it down for some reason.    

There are enough valid reasons for people to stay with P3D "without" comparing or dismissing the other sim as "better scenery only" or "VFR only". 

P3D has enough strengths people using it shouldn't be worried about going tit for tat on features and functionality with MSFS chances are they are already sticking with it because of something MSFS doesn't do or something that isn't available in MSFS...

And if people "just don't want to" without any reason that's fine too!  

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by psolk

20 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

......I'll add another. Any scenery or aircraft purchased via the Marketplace is encrypted making even AFCAD changes impossible. Why do they do that? It seems counter-productive.

I should have added "more difficult to modify AFD files" to my list. I have upgraded/changed hundreds of AFD files over the years, and not being able to do this in MSFS would frustrate the hell out of me. I like to be able to add missing parking spots, adjust parking types, correct taxiway designation errors, correct runway/taxiway alignment errors, and even adjust/replace/remove certain static objects if I am able to do so. I have been able to do this ever since Flight Unlimited 3 over twenty years ago (where I used the FLight Unlimited EDitor to correct the alignment of taxiways, lighting and AI pathways for just about every single airfield and airport in the Seattle and San Francisco high resolution scenery regions; the Seattle region was a mess when the game was released), so it has become a normal routine for me.

Bearing this in mind, I am unlikely to ever purchase an airport addon from the MS Marketplace if they continue to be encrypted.

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by Christopher Low

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

 

Looking at that terribly unrealistic WXR depiction makes me miss having it in MSFS a little bit less. 

10 minutes ago, psolk said:

Point me to where I said the PMDG 737 flies any better?  If you want to get into that debate then yes, we can bring in the real world pilots that have flown it in both sims but I'm not sure where that comment even came from..  It already has better LNAV/VNAV in MSFS so technically it should fly better though.   LNAV/VNAV 2.0 should make it to P3D eventually though.  Again, the insinuation that MSFS is good for VFR but because you are an IFR pilot MSFS is no good?  Just flat out untrue and only going to lead to people arguing.

You said MSFS was so much more than just better scenery. Given accurate flight models in a brand new sim that alone should allow for a more accurate depiction of the aircraft than in P3D. That's not an unreasonable deduction is it?

Yes, the LNAV fix will come to P3D and I'll wait patiently for it. I gave plenty of reasons why I will stay with P3D but you didn't even mention those because they are valid for me. Who's arguing? This is a sensible discussion about why we here in the P3D forum are happy to stay with it.

14 minutes ago, psolk said:

Ray, I completely respect and understand your position, I agree with it entirely!!  I'm in P3D right now in the QW787 because there is no equivalent 787 in MSFS.  I acknowledged there are reasons people can't move but you seem intent on giving reasons MSFS is no good.  Not no good for you but no good like your marketplace example.  You want to beat it down for some reason.    

No Paul, I'm giving reasons why I cannot entertain MSFS as a replacement for P3D. Those are perfectly valid. The MarketPlace situation is fact. The files are encrypted. Yes, the product can be bought outside it but some things like the 787 that cost extra in the Deluxe version are still encrypted. Why do they do that? It's unprecedented. I'll criticise it for as long as they don't allow 3rd party weather developers in. Weather is paramount to me and not just live weather.

9 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Looking at that terribly unrealistic WXR depiction makes me miss having it in MSFS a little bit less.

It looks fine to me and certainly better than nothing.

33 minutes ago, Sethos said:

Then don't buy it off the marketplace. Almost every single plane and airport is available via third party stores, per usual or the developer's own store. 

Is there a clear warning on the MarketPlace that files are encrypted? If so, fair enough. If not then that's a problem people will only find out about afterwards.

22 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

I should have added "more difficult to modify AFD files" to my list. I have upgraded/changed hundreds of AFD files over the years, and not being able to do this in MSFS would frustrate the hell out of me. I like to be able to add missing parking spots, adjust parking types, correct taxiway designation errors, correct runway/taxiway alignment errors, and even adjust/replace/remove certain static objects if I am able to do so. I have been able to do this ever since Flight Unlimited 3 over twenty years ago (where I used the FLight Unlimited EDitor to correct the alignment of taxiways, lighting and AI pathways for just about every single airfield and airport in the Seattle and San Francisco high resolution scenery regions; the Seattle region was a mess when the game was released), so it has become a normal routine for me.

Bearing this in mind, I am unlikely to ever purchase an airport addon from the MS Marketplace if they continue to be encrypted.

I still buy all my scenery the exact same way I did in P3D...  Direct from Orbx, FSDT, DD, FlyTampa etc.  Have not had any issues with anything be non-modifiable but they already decrypted aircraft.cfg files from marketplace so they are learning 😉   

@Chapstick I don't see how comments like that help either.  Belittling P3D is not constructive or productive especially in the P3D forum...  I'm just trying to be fair and balanced here and as I don't see some of Ray's comments as helpful I find yours equally divisive and non-productive.  

6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

No Paul, I'm giving reasons why I cannot entertain MSFS as a replacement for P3D. Those are perfectly valid. The MarketPlace situation is fact. The files are encrypted. Yes, the product can be bought outside it but some things like the 787 that cost extra in the Deluxe version are still encrypted.

No, they are not encrypted any more. 

6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Is there a clear warning on the MarketPlace that files are encrypted? If so, fair enough. If not then that's a problem people will only find out about afterwards.

Thought your complaint was being unable to modify AFCAD files, not you championing against the encryption of an optional store. 

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by Sethos

28 minutes ago, psolk said:

It's not just better scenery either, comments like that just divide the community even further, it's a new platform utilizing the latest technologies.  I personally feel a comment like this is far more accurate:

Could I really give up so much for a brand new platform based on the latest technology that still has shortcomings and missing elements when P3D has everything I need today? In short, no.

[...]

Hopefully LM says SOMETHING soon to give some direction, even if it is just fixing EA, cockpit lighting and volumetric clouds!  

^Hard agree on all of this!
 

17 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

It's a personal decision and one I have chewed over for a long time. There is also the gut feeling and that also holds me back. [...]

I'm not aware the PMDG737 flies any better in MSFS than P3D but point me to the evidence and I'll read it. [...]

While I strongly concur with Paul's rebuttal of your original comment as to why MSFS is more than just 'better scenery', I can also agree that there are some significant shortcomings which may be "red lines" for people using P3D (or XP for that matter) as their primary flight sim.

For me, what puts MSFS slightly ahead of P3D is that so much of what it offers is native to the base sim and does not require a 3PD add-on to do the job. That reduces the chances of errors and CTDs, reduces the use of PC resources from multiple external apps, lowers load-in times and saves me cash.

Ray, you asked whether the 737 flies any better in MSFS than P3D... Here's a pretty good list:
https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/617802-collection-of-real-life-737-pilots-opinions-on-pmdg-737-here/

Also, https://fselite.net/content/review-pmdg-737-700-for-msfs/:

Quote

there’s also plenty to love for how the plane feels in Microsoft Flight Simulator. In Prepar3D, the 737 always felt like it was on rails. It never really felt like the weather outside had any impact on the slippery plane. Now, thanks to the new aerodynamic engine, the 737 finally feels fluid in the air. A slight breeze will knock you off course a little bit and it’s your job to correct it. Hand flying the 737 is extremely rewarding and feels incredibly natural.

Controversial comment regarding P3D aside, Calum has described a noticeable improvement between the two platforms. Whereas in P3D I needed ActiveSky and RealTurb to generate wind shear and mechanical turbulence, MSFS does both natively as well as include convective turbulence.

Despite the lack of historical weather and ChasePlane, I have a better experience with MSFS currently than I did with P3D with *all* the addons I owned. In spite of MSFS' shortcomings, it works for me. Ray's and Christopher's use cases as described earlier, mean that P3D is still currently the right sim for them.

Ray, I said your reasons were valid hence I am agreeing not arguing.  Why would I re-list things I already agreed with? Why are you picking things to fight with me on while ignoring everything else I said?    

47 minutes ago, psolk said:

There are enough valid reasons for people to stay with P3D "without" comparing or dismissing the other sim as "better scenery only" or "VFR only". 

P3D has enough strengths people using it shouldn't be worried about going tit for tat on features and functionality with MSFS chances are they are already sticking with it because of something MSFS doesn't do or something that isn't available in MSFS...

Saying MSFS is nothing more than "better scenery" or that it is good for VFR only are not facts, they are inflammatory comments and I'm sorry you don't see the balance in what I am saying.

You now have an issue with encrypted files in Marketplace but no one is forced to use Marketplace you can buy scenery the same way as P3D and furthermore files are being decrypted per Asobo so it's really a non-issue. 

Conversations between you and I can clearly no longer be productive so I will just stop now.  Wish you the best for an enjoyable Sunday

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by psolk

16 minutes ago, Sethos said:

No, they are not encrypted any more. 

Thought your complaint was being unable to modify AFCAD files, not you championing against the encryption of an optional store. 

No files are encrypted? Not even the 787? As people can buy airports direct I would always choose that option. Modifying AFCADs is lower down my priorities.

15 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

Ray, you asked whether the 737 flies any better in MSFS than P3D... Here's a pretty good list:

Thanks. Given I’m not a real world pilot I’d probably struggle to notice any difference. I have to say that the departure from New Orleans was pretty realistic with multiple wind shear enunciations.

16 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

Ray's and Christopher's use cases as described earlier, mean that P3D is still currently the right sim for them.

Indeed. Having a high quality ATC program is also extremely important. I couldn’t cope with anything other than RC4.

20 minutes ago, psolk said:

Ray, I said your reasons were valid hence I am agreeing not arguing.  Why would I re-list things I already agreed with? Why are you picking things to fight with me on while ignoring everything else I said?  Saying MSFS is nothing more than "better scenery" or that it is good for VFR only are not facts, they are inflammatory comments and I'm sorry you don't see the balance in what I am saying.

Lost in the mists of the internet I guess. 😉 I’m not picking an argument with you Paul. I have noticed across the forums that criticism of MSFS does not go down well at all. If people want to criticise P3D I just ignore their comments.

My reasons for not buying it are not inflammatory. Given I spend most of my time at FL300 or higher the MSFS scenery is not that important to me. Accurate weather for times other than current plus decent ATC are.

25 minutes ago, psolk said:

Conversations between you and I can clearly no longer be productive so I will just stop now.  Wish you the best for an enjoyable Sunday

Fair enough. Enjoy your Sunday too.

Just now, Ray Proudfoot said:

No files are encrypted? Not even the 787? As people can buy airports direct I would always choose that option. Modifying AFCADs is lower down my priorities.

The premium and deluxe planes have all been decrypted for modification. They also immediately popped up in the piracy community when that happened. And you can buy everything as per usual, with no encryption, so that certainly can't be a negative you can personally use against the platform, when you are also aware of said encryption. The store stuff being encrypted also allows developers an OPTIONAL way of selling their work, without it being pirated, if they wanted.

@Sethos, thanks.

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

helpful gentleman named Cartayna who provided many wonderful jetways

 

That is one thing I have never got right. GSX works at some airports but at others I have a working Jetway which attaches automatically but as soon as I activate GSX to load the plane etc. that jetway disappears and I am told "no jetways at this gate" (or similar). I tried Cartayna but honestly don't know what difference there is or is supposed to be.

58 minutes ago, IanHarrison said:

That is one thing I have never got right. GSX works at some airports but at others I have a working Jetway which attaches automatically but as soon as I activate GSX to load the plane etc. that jetway disappears and I am told "no jetways at this gate" (or similar). I tried Cartayna but honestly don't know what difference there is or is supposed to be.

The Cartayna files include instructions to prevent existing jetways from showing. Generally those supplied with the package.

The files he supplies include an ini that contains all the settings for each jetway. In it there is a line pointing to the AFCAD for the airport. Make sure the path is valid.

If you’re unsure if a custom jetway has been read open the GSX menu from Options and top left shows the path to the ini file.

In his packages there are options for glass jetways that allow you to see pax walking through them. Highly recommended.

You can design your own but it takes time until you become familiar with the process.

A few months ago, I forced myself to uninstall P3D in order to give MSFS a chance, which I used when it launched and then paused until SU5, and then used it a few times and decided to pause again until SU9 when finally I've had the "best" experience with it. I'm mostly an airliner guy, although I fly low and slow as well (have basically all of orbx regions for P3D and X-Plane, including most of Milviz/A2A's fleet in P3D and Thranda's, vFlyte and JF in X-Plane for GA flying). I have also purchased the PMDG 737, Leonardo MD and Fenix for MSFS.

The reason for the lengthy intro, is that just this week I went back to P3D (5.3) and FSLabs, 747, 777 and yes even the 737NGxu, and it just felt like being back "home". 

Good weather representation is back, visuals for airline flying are pretty much there (I have some SamScene sceneries, plus all of Orbx LC for eye candy - albeit I chose not to install Vector this time), rock solid performance and stability (except for GSX, which is a mess now for both P3D and MSFS, but that's another story and I'm sure it is circumstantial...) . So... I ended up spending most of my weekend reinstalling all the add-on sceneries I own (which is more than I remember having) and ended up buying some 200 Euros more of some add-on for P3D.

Bottom line: I won't be uninstalling P3D any time soon, even with the MSFS fleet and scenery investments I've done, I'm definitely in no hurry to go back to MSFS. Sure, the Fenix is nice, so is Leonardo's MD and PMDG's 737, but until now... I can't just get MSFS to "click" with me at all after two years. I am sure it will continue to improve... and I am definitely looking forward to SU10 and the 40th anniversary edition... but I'm not too hopeful, honestly. I guess the lesson here is: enjoy all three, P3D, MSFS and X-Plane.  Because I don't see any of these replacing the other, like many in the MSFS forum seem to be so inclined of promoting so vehemently. 

Anyway, back to flying!