Ultimate Smoothness at Modest Frame Rates

[Noel 4,486]

Yep sorry and as the last comment stated the last step is to load PL ;o)

[Republic DC9 234]

49 minutes ago, Noel said:

As I use PL its purpose is to take other processes off of MSFS' main thread.  You should be able to identify which is the main thread simply by looking at PL's graphic core % in use display on the upper right part of the PL window. 

You will keep ALL cores available to MSFS so in your case 0-19 I assume you have 20 cores so MSFS gets 0-19.   All other process you will assign to all processes except the main thread's core.  You can also change MSFS' CPU Priority to HIGH, as well as MSFS' I/O priority to HIGH.

OK thank you  - on my rig, both Cores "1" and "4" out of my 20 would spike way up (not clear which was actually the main thread), so I assigned MSFS to all 20 cores and watched as other processes came up and assigned affinity of all BUT cores 1 and 4 to whatever programs would run (one of them scolded me not to play with the affinity so I didn't).

Just did a KBUR to KLAX run and it seems very smooth!

Thanks,,,Steve

[Noel 4,486]

17 minutes ago, Republic DC9 said:

OK thank you  - on my rig, both Cores "1" and "4" out of my 20 would spike way up (not clear which was actually the main thread), so I assigned MSFS to all 20 cores and watched as other processes came up and assigned affinity of all BUT cores 1 and 4 to whatever programs would run (one of them scolded me not to play with the affinity so I didn't).

Just did a KBUR to KLAX run and it seems very smooth!

Thanks,,,Steve

I'll tell you I remain absolutely blown away.  For 2 years I had what I thought was fabulous performance, and really it was in large part. My history in this was that when I first discovered this particular method in RTSS I had no idea why it just felt/seemed smoother than anything else, so began a quest to see why.  Cpt_Piett turned me on to CapFrameX, and it was there I learned why I was noticing this, again having to do solely with ultra low frametime variance.  I tried all other syncing methods which were certainly okay, but this was in a class by itself  and it's persisted.   TBH PL I think has been a finishing touch to help lose a couple of minor sources of stutters, but the real magic for me came w/ RTSS w/ Edge Sync.

FWIW looking at PL I see a lot of activity on the other 7 cores but clearly for the 9900K Core07 is the MT.

 

 

[TomCYYZ 205]

1 hour ago, garydpoole said:

Can I assume that the above should read, "...except you must NOT run PL before starting MSFS else it may/will not load." ?

I run PL on Windows start, so far no problems starting MSFS.

[pmb 5,137]

13 minutes ago, TomCYYZ said:

I run PL on Windows start, so far no problems starting MSFS.

Here the same, I have been starting PL with windows for many years and never had an issue when launching MSFS.

I can imagine the difference are specific PL settings.

Kind regards, Michael

[Noel 4,486]

34 minutes ago, TomCYYZ said:

I run PL on Windows start, so far no problems starting MSFS.

Nice that would be better for sure.  Are you using Win 10 or 11?  I'm on 10 and I thought perhaps the reason had to do with the fact I had disabled some 10 services/processes from startup, but now that I think about it I used PL a long while back and this same issue existed for me.   

[GSalden 4,655]

One little step further than PL is using batchfiles which let an app run on specific cores and at a specific priority the moment you start the app.

Changing priority afterwards by an app is less beneficial… 

[garydpoole 183]

18 minutes ago, Noel said:

Nice that would be better for sure.  Are you using Win 10 or 11?  I'm on 10 and I thought perhaps the reason had to do with the fact I had disabled some 10 services/processes from startup, but now that I think about it I used PL a long while back and this same issue existed for me.   

I suspect that this is related to how 'enthusiastic' you are at changing System service affinities. I got a bit carried away with a block change, the result being that MSFS refused to load. Reinstated them and all was well...

[TomCYYZ 205]

3 hours ago, Noel said:

Nice that would be better for sure.  Are you using Win 10 or 11?  I'm on 10 and I thought perhaps the reason had to do with the fact I had disabled some 10 services/processes from startup, but now that I think about it I used PL a long while back and this same issue existed for me.   

I am running Win10. I have never disabled any systems, other than the PL affinity changes for Cores 0-10 (basically run PL vanilla) for those services that allow. I just let my OS do it's own thing I guess.

[Noel 4,486]

1 hour ago, TomCYYZ said:

I just let my OS do it's own thing I guess.

I have too Tom but when I started my troubleshooting determined to get rid of every possible source of stuttering I looked into every possible/potential contributor and so disabled non-critical services and out of all zillion of them only 10 were disabled, ones like printer spooler, Bluetooth, essentially only features I will never use.  I don't think they mattered anyway and sometime I should restore them as they aren't going to be active anyway.  I had not done any of this when PL did not allow me to start MSFS a long time ago, so that I don't think has much to do with this and also had not played around with changing all affinities possible and still had troubles launching MSFS after PL was loaded.  I contacted Justin the dev and he didn't know what to make of it either, so at that point I didn't use PL again until a few months ago when I started this process.  Fortunately it's not really coming into play as an issue to solve.

 

[fly_with_nick 0]

I have taken pleasure in pushing my VR experience to the max for 1 year now. Started with RTX 3090, upgraded to 4090 in November. You can get enough frames to turn off motion reprojection (also known as make things blurry, and give everything an underwater effect). BUT the problem is there isn't a SOLID way to lock frames at half the framerate of my 90hz Reverb G2. So you get micro stutters ALL THE TIME. With a 12900k + 4090 at 45fps. 

This riva magic thingymadoodle is INSANE. I've literally been searching for this solution for 3 months. It doesn't completely fix the stutters but I'd say it makes things 80% better, which is completely incredible. I am SO happy. Thank you so much. I will be making a video about this.

[GentleGroove 69]

I've been trying to avoid tweaking with MSFS, and generally speaking am happy with performance and looks. The only thing still nagging me is some stuttering on large airports with lots of traffic (using FSLTL) so I'm going to try this.

[RJC68 823]

On 12/29/2022 at 11:43 AM, Noel said:

I have achieved liquid smoothness at relatively a low frame rate, in all planes I use (PMDG 738, AS CRJ700, B78X, TBM930), everywhere including the most complex departure AND arrival terminals.  It is rare now to get even 1 stutter anywhere from gate to gate and this includes during taxi, turning and all AI and ground traffic are ultra smooth--GSX Pro objects still gets the occasional stutter.  All settings on Ultra, system specs in signature.

Known Possible Limitations

• Probably need a Gsync display, though perhaps Freesync will work for this as well.
• I don't use VR, so this may not work well there because this method allows for relatively low frame rates with zero loss of fluidity.
• I only have my hardware to test on:  so Intel CPU, NV GPU, etc.

Basics

• ALL other methods of Vsync or framerate lock are OFF, except:  RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync w/ Passive Waiting enabled
  • This method delivers incomparably low frame time variance (FTV) which I learned is the pathway to ultra-smooth animation at modest frame rates.  I'm convinced there is an inverse relationship between framerate and FTV such that the lower the framerate the more low FTV matters.  Brute force with RTX4000 w/ its frame generation obviates this some because the higher the frame rate the less it matters to have ultra low FTV in the perception of fluid animation.
  • A Gsync display is required to get rid of a tear line that appears with this method of frame rate limit (FreeSync may work, unable to test)
• Process Lasso
  • All resources off the main thread.  I'm pretty sure this has eliminated a couple of persistent sources of stuttering (ATC related, audio related, primarily)
  • MSFS Process Priority at High
  • MSFS I/O at Critical
• FSLTL's limiter to control traffic density as this has a big impact on the main thread.
• NV Control Panel:  all default global, except Low Latency is set to Ultra
• GeForce Experience had NO adverse effects on smoothness nor stuttering so I use this for its filters and video recording
• I discovered using Render Scaling different from default 100 creates a subtle but recurrent 'shimmer' for lack of a better word--kind of a sudden shaking back and forth, that is subtle be there.

TBH in the PMDG 738 I tend to just leave T-LOD at 130 to allow me into any terminal anywhere, all Ultra settings save T-LOD, with zero stuttering anytime including taxi.  I've accidently left it at 200 after flying in the AS CRJ which does fine at 200, and even then almost no stutters anywhere.  But truthfully, T-LOD at 130 v 200 is not an earth shattering difference anyway.  

Here's the counterintuitive part:  with my Gsync Ultimate display I can run frame rates well above where I do, which is right at 33 or 34 via RTSS' limiter.  I've run at 50FPS as well, and there is no visual benefit whatsoever and that is because of the ultra-low FTV in both scenarios, when syncing via this method.   In-sim Vsync, NVCP Vsync, do not create what you see in the 2nd screenshot below.  And in fact from Cpt_Piett's testing you don't get this kind of FTV with frame generation either--but I think when you have frame rates of 80 or 100 ultra low FTV won't matter so much.

Here we are in the PMDG 738, frame rate unlocked, thru a Gsync display, with a variable frame rate averaging around the low 40's.  Note the FTV. 

Now here's the same flight however locked at 34 via RTSS.  Visually, this is superior to what you see above despite the 24% lower frame rate!  Superior panning, turning, fluidity etc

As mentioned I can run the RTSS limiter well above my default 33 or 34 when conditions permit, but again there is zero benefit from this.  And the downside is, and I believe this is relevant to my complete lack of stuttering even flying into KLAX in the PMDG 738:  you lose the headroom you get from not running wide open and I believe this becomes a source of inability to keep up with sudden demand, and so ensuing stutter.  So typically now my mainthread (via MSI Afterburner's OSD, which isn't precise, but useful still) sits around 70% instead of 97% when unlocked, and GPU around 70% instead of 99% when unlocked.  My sense is this leaves a little headroom to absorb spikes with.

It is a total game changer to have liquid smooth performance everywhere, in any plane.  This has been so awesome I had to post it in more detail for those who might not have experienced Nirvana yet and bonus--an RTX4000 series card is not needed, at least for 3440x1440, and no VR.  Follow the method carefully to give it a fair test.

Here's what RTSS should look like.  Note we're not using Scanline sync, just Framerate Limit:

Click Setup, and scroll to Compatibility Properties:

Cool bonus:  you can toggle the limiter on and off while flying w/o stopping by using RTSS' HotkeyHandler.dll.  You can see I use Num * button on to toggle the limiter off and on.  This is useful to see where you would be unlocked.  And if I'm at an ultra demanding airport where the unlocked rate is essentially to my lock at 33/34 I'll run unlocked until up and away, then a simple button press returns me to limited (with its superior FTV and lower demand on hardware):

I hope this helps others it's been an absolutely astonishing finding and has made all flights a joy.  I tried all other methods to get here and none match this.  I'll not be upgrading my hardware anytime soon! 

Hey Noel,

Hope all is well with you.

I decided to revisit your methodology as I brought a 55 inch Sony X90K just after Christmas. I have been experimenting with the different pictures modes on this TV including Gsync (it's only a gsync compatible unit) I couldn't quite get down to 35fps as in your test due to the panning in the cockpit not being smooth, probably because on a 55 inch display at the lower framerate it is really noticeable. After some experimenting I found 43fps was a good spot and with mostly Ultra settings apart from TLOD - 130 & OLOD - 150 I am consistently seeing the following (I only use FSLTL to populate the airports) I am going to see where I can push the LOD's too.

The numbers are not quite where yours are but I get that running a higher fps but it's very smooth and consistent. The test I did below was at EGKK in the Fenix A320 from start of taxi to around 22 minutes of flight. I am pretty happy with the results !

[Noel 4,486]

14 hours ago, RJC68 said:

The numbers are not quite where yours are but I get that running a higher fps but it's very smooth and consistent. The test I did below was at EGKK in the Fenix A320 from start of taxi to around 22 minutes of flight. I am pretty happy with the results !

Very nice and in the Fenix no less!  The FBW A320NX isn't as rock solid yet as PMDG 738 but it's decent for performance.  Yes for sure the big screen means you need a higher minimum frame rate than someone w/ a smaller screen will.  Have you used the nice HotKey handler logic so you can toggle the lock on and off during runtime?  It's assigned to the asterisk key for my configuration and I find it's useful in certain scenarios but in general I feel part of the value of locking is giving headroom for transient demand spikes.  I

Cheers ;o)

[altenae 171]

Since 4 weeks I have the ultimate smoothness.
I have bought the 4090 and use FG.
In Nvidia settings I have set max framerate to 60 and Vertical sync to on.
Using a 65 inch Sony TV.

It's 99,99 procent perfect.
Also the FBW is smooth now (fixed a performance issue , available in the DEV en EXP version)