Just Flight Fokker F-28 release date Wed 12th July

[Fiorentoni 4,358]

25 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

😮😮

I have no words to reply, the statement is just way out there...

The 146 for P3D left many people unsatisfied due to the lack of updates (FMC), their 747-200 never realized at all. Another airliner I missed? Granted, I should have said "Just Flights AIRLINER track record".

[BMIBaby 17]

7 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

The 146 for P3D left many people unsatisfied due to the lack of updates (FMC), their 747-200 never realized at all. Another airliner I missed? Granted, I should have said "Just Flights AIRLINER track record".

People don't forget being stung. I remember being one of the first to purchase Just Flight's Traffic 360 for FSX, which we then had to wait months for them to fix the AI taxying around with their front exits open.

This is why I'm so unnerved at them calmly brushing off the F28 autopilot AIS Mode problem just days before release. Not a good look. 

[SAS443 1,729]

11 minutes ago, MarcoPolo said:

This is why I'm so unnerved at them calmly brushing off the F28 autopilot AIS Mode problem just days before release. Not a good look. 

Hmm... didn't their 146  in P3D also suck really hard in the AP speed on pitch-regime on release? It busted targets from left to right, before it was finally fixed with a patch. But it took a few weeks IIRC.

Edit: sure it did!

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/590414-just-flight-146-professional/?do=findComment&comment=4424371

Edited July 8, 2023 by SAS443

[UrgentSiesta 942]

39 minutes ago, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said:

I came to this thread to learn details about this new F28 -- an aircraft I'm not all that familiar with. 

Ha ha! there's usually VERY little discussion of the addon itself. If that's what you're looking for, the youtube linked above is made by an IRL Airbus pilot who gives exceedingly detailed, well balanced and accurate reviews of addons from the perspective of real world operations. You need look no further for info on the addon itself, really.

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But each one of you has the power to influence future pricing decisions with your purchases or lack thereof.

We influenced the price of the MSFS BAe 146 by doing exactly what you see in these threads, thank you very much. (and if you look carefully, you'll see that at least one JF employee is here 😉 ).

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I might have bought this if it were $29, but there's a zero percent chance that I will at this price, but that's because I really don't care whether or not I ever actually have an F28 in MSFS. If it were one of the three aircraft I really want to see in this sim, I'd go ahead and pay it even though I wouldn't be happy about it; 

This is EXACTLY the kind of discussion we need Just Flight to see.

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JF has made the decision to price it higher, perhaps anticipating it won't be a huge seller because it's not the most popular aircraft in the skies, and that's their right. No one should be telling the other side how to spend their money. The marketplace, as always, will decide whether this price is reasonable.

A. False assumptions.

B. We're not telling them how to price, we're telling them what we'll pay. This isn't the same old market they've been living in for the last 20 years. Things. Have. Changed.

C. The Marketplace is a cruel school mistress and all you get is a Pass/Fail. Far better for JF to include our dissenting perspective on WHY "it won't be a huge seller". Then they can decide if they want to do additional research or make adjustments, etc. Again, they did it with the BAe 146, so why not here?

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Can we please agree to not have a seven plus page discussion about the price of an aircraft ever again, okay?

In a sim that literally offers you the entire world and has some now-amazing default aircraft, there really are better things to do with our time. 

A. No. Next question?

B. I'm sitting on a tropical beach enjoying a cocktail while armchair debating my favorite hobby. This is a GREAT use of time.

[rick celik 1,251]

11 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Ha ha! there's usually VERY little discussion of the addon itself. If that's what you're looking for, the youtube linked above is made by an IRL Airbus pilot who gives exceedingly detailed, well balanced and accurate reviews of addons from the perspective of real world operations. You need look no further for info on the addon itself, really.

We influenced the price of the MSFS BAe 146 by doing exactly what you see in these threads, thank you very much. (and if you look carefully, you'll see that at least one JF employee is here 😉 ).

This is EXACTLY the kind of discussion we need Just Flight to see.

A. False assumptions.

B. We're not telling them how to price, we're telling them what we'll pay. This isn't the same old market they've been living in for the last 20 years. Things. Have. Changed.

C. The Marketplace is a cruel school mistress and all you get is a Pass/Fail. Far better for JF to include our dissenting perspective on WHY "it won't be a huge seller". Then they can decide if they want to do additional research or make adjustments, etc. Again, they did it with the BAe 146, so why not here?

A. No. Next question?

B. I'm sitting on a tropical beach enjoying a cocktail while armchair debating my favorite hobby. This is a GREAT use of time.

LOL. Sitting on a tropical beach, last thing I would be doing is typing on avsim or even checking emails for that matter. 

Tropical beach cocktails can be expensive you know..... maybe slow down on the drinks and you can get the fokker?

For some reason I can almost guarantee you are not on a tropical beach, I get the waiting for the bus on the way to work vibes.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Ridvan Celik

[UrgentSiesta 942]

50 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

their 747-200 never realized at all.

they made the very tough, but very correct decision to re-code that for MSFS.

[UrgentSiesta 942]

5 minutes ago, Ridvan Celik said:

LOL. Sitting on a tropical beach, last thing I would be doing is typing on avsim or even checking emails for that matter. 

I live 10 mins away, so we come every single weekend and stay most of the day. Plenty of time for beach activities. 🙂

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Tropical beach cocktails can be expensive you know..... maybe slow down on the drinks and you can get the fokker?

Since we live 10 mins away, I mix and drink my own.

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For some reason I can almost guarantee you are not on a tropical beach, I get the waiting for the bus on the way to work vibes.

I work from home, and it's Saturday, in any case.

Any other off-topic Clouseau-ish speculation you'd like to offer?

[BrammyH 461]

22 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Any other off-topic Clouseau-ish speculation you'd like to offer?

You are not, in fact, urgent about your siestas? 🙂

[Matchstick 1,902]

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Yep. Pure, plain Vanilla. 

If JF deliver a flying experience anything like a modern(ish) short range twin they will have utterly failed to do justice to the aircraft.

So if we do get vanilla, then  yea you shouldn't buy it, but if we get rum and raisin (and I'm hoping we will) it'll be something quite distinct.

[F737MAX 5,738]

1 hour ago, Ridvan Celik said:

Sitting on a tropical beach, last thing I would be doing is typing on avsim or even checking emails for that matter. 

Back in mid-March I did just that. Northwest coast of Barbados (highly recommend it). Read the two books I had brought with me, swam plenty and was getting a little restless with nothing else to do. So I read, rather than posting on, Avsim and sent some emails. Everyone has their interests, reading Avsim on holiday was mine.

 

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JF has made the decision to price it higher, perhaps anticipating it won't be a huge seller because it's not the most popular aircraft in the skies, and that's their right.

True, however complaining about add-on pricing is legitimate customer feedback. What they do with that info is upto them. Selling at $35 to $40, I consider picking it up. At $70, no chance — those tropical holidays require saving some cash! 😁

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by F737MAX

[G MIDY 101]

4 hours ago, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said:

I am new here but I really don't get the impassioned arguments. I came to this thread to learn details about this new F28 -- an aircraft I'm not all that familiar with. Seven pages in and there is almost nothing said about the actual aircraft. It is almost exclusively a food fight between those who think it is overpriced and those who either think you should buy it anyway to support the dev or should not complain about the price. No one here is going to come away from such a discussion thinking, "you know he has a point -- I now think $70 is quite reasonable" or "you know he has a point -- $70 is too much even though I like JF and really want an F-28." So what is the point of all of this bickering?

Assuming it isn't just that people like to argue, I sense that some people  here are concerned that the precedent primarily set when PMDG decided to price their MSFS DC-6 so reasonably, and followed by the more-than-reasonably priced study-level Fenix A320, might be eroded by an F28 (successfully) selling for $70.

JF is in this business to make money. Everyone is. They need to find a sweep spot in pricing that allows them to maximize their earnings on their product. If they were convinced they could sell a million of these at $29 each, but only sell 10,000 of them at $99, I think we know what they'd do. Time will tell if they made the right decision. But each one of you has the power to influence future pricing decisions with your purchases or lack thereof.

I might have bought this if it were $29, but there's a zero percent chance that I will at this price, but that's because I really don't care whether or not I ever actually have an F28 in MSFS. If it were one of the three aircraft I really want to see in this sim, I'd go ahead and pay it even though I wouldn't be happy about it; I think we can all agree that virtually all of the people who will buy this are big-time fans of the F-28 and that people like me won't be tempted no matter how good the aircraft turns out.

JF has made the decision to price it higher, perhaps anticipating it won't be a huge seller because it's not the most popular aircraft in the skies, and that's their right. No one should be telling the other side how to spend their money. The marketplace, as always, will decide whether this price is reasonable.

Can we please agree to not have a seven plus page discussion about the price of an aircraft ever again, okay? In a sim that literally offers you the entire world and has some now-amazing default aircraft, there really are better things to do with our time. 

 

I think there is a misconception that developers are pricing greedily to turn large profits but this isn't really true.

A second misconception is the lack of knowledge in the community around the development curve and its associated costs. All of the costs in aircraft development lie in the complex programming and aircraft systems knowledge (sorry cliche I know but time*skill=money). FS development is niche, there are very few developers with the expertise required. It is very technically demanding and for study level aircraft it goes even further because you need the involvement of technical and industry experts.

It's also true that it's much harder to develop some aspects of the F28 because it's a very old aircraft and flying examples are non-existent. The technical documentation probably doesn't exist and you can't ask experts because unfortunately many aren't alive anymore.

Unfortunately MSFS sales do not work solely on a sort of demand scale like most think, the economics are actually quite risky even for what would be the most popular aircraft releases. A study level 787 for example would sell extremely well however it would take years to develop and so there's a lot of risk in deciding whether those long development times and costs can be met or are justifiable. It's not viable for example to run a 5 year development cycle which ends with the requirement to charge customers $500 per copy to justify your costs.

All of the above reflects what happens behind the curtain and the difficulties developing in a niche yet complex market. In terms of the F28, it's very likely that the F28 will be a lower volume product so it has to be sold at a higher price to meet costs, that's pretty much it.

Edited July 9, 2023 by G MIDY

[kiwikat 529]

4 minutes ago, G MIDY said:

it's very likely that the F28 will be a lower volume product so it has to be sold at a higher price to meet costs, that's pretty much it.

Yeah, and because of it being a higher price, it will be an even lower volume than it would have been anyways, so it is a double-edged sword of sorts.

Do you think many people care about a ford trimotor or Boeing 307, or almost any of the Microsobo offerings on the store? Nah, they're enticing looking models that fly and sound decently well enough, at a cheap price, and are convenient because they're offered on the in-game store. Yes, the Fokker took more development resources than most of these, so not exactly apples to apples, but maybe the ATR is a better comparison. I own a few of these planes and are happy with them at the price. I'd really be curious to see how this plane (or any other "study-level" addon) would do offered on the marketplace at 20 USD. The biggest hurdle I see to that approach is that a random plane sold on the marketplace doesn't have the marketing behind it like the ones that end up in Asobo's videos on youtube and twitch, and aren't promoted when you open the store.

We also don't have many public data points to go by on whether higher quantity makes up for low price or not. It's a super consumer-friendly theory, but not sure how the developer ends up. SWS stated their ($5?) market test on the Zenith was very successful. Unfortunately PMDG hasn't said anything about whether their $35 736 was successful or not. I am positive developers have a data-driven answer to my question- perhaps this price is Just Flight's answer to that question. As a data analyst myself, I remain skeptical until I see numbers. 🙃

[rick celik 1,251]

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I live 10 mins away, so we come every single weekend and stay most of the day. Plenty of time for beach activities. 🙂

Since we live 10 mins away, I mix and drink my own.

I work from home, and it's Saturday, in any case.

Any other off-topic Clouseau-ish speculation you'd like to offer?

Ok are we bragging? 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Ridvan Celik

[UrgentSiesta 942]

6 minutes ago, Ridvan Celik said:

Ok are we bragging? 

Just a little 🙂

[rick celik 1,251]

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Just a little 🙂

Ok next time you want to brag about the beach… try not doing it to someone who lives on the East-coast of Australia…. How close you might ask? Close enough that salt erosion is an issue. Bondi beach is great. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Ridvan Celik