6 hours ago, Ridvan Celik said:

Really digging that deep into a $70 flight sim addon? loosen up. Its your hobby, our hobby, support the devs (reputable devs)

I have JF addons across 3 sims, so I've supported them plenty.

When they offer something rare, like their sublime Hawk T1/a or Vulcan, I'm willing to pay a reasonable premium for it.

But for Yet Another Vanilla Twin Engine Airliner? Not a chance.

6 hours ago, ual763 said:

If it is “something [you] don’t even want to use at all”, why are you here bitc*ing about the price?  You’re forgetting that not even a full 5yrs ago, PMDG was charging $130 for just the base pack on P3D.  This addon gives you *4* variants, each with a custom unique flight & 3D model.  The texturing is superb & they have the track record to back it up.  Go bark up a different tree.

This isn't Prepar3D.

6 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I have JF addons across 3 sims, so I've supported them plenty.

When they offer something rare, like their sublime Hawk T1/a or Vulcan, I'm willing to pay a reasonable premium for it.

But for Yet Another Vanilla Twin Engine Airliner? Not a chance.

Vanilla ? You're expecting something like a clone of the CRJ or MD-80 ?

Seriously - the OP kindly posted the release details and we have 6 pages of bickering over the price.

Here's something for free: if you think it's too expensive, don't buy it.

This circular argument will go on forever unless the mods lock this silly thread.

Simmers ..... 🤷‍♂️

6 hours ago, jason74 said:

You easily spend over $70 in a few hours on a night out, spend $70 on the F28 and you get 100s hrs its a no brainer for me.

Given the growing list of High Fidelity airliners, this is simply not a compelling choice at $70.

 

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If you think its to much you can always by Captain Sim aircraft.

Or, y'know...the PMDG 737-600 at $35. THAT is a compelling "no brainer" value.

Quote

Also still no EFB from PMDG yeah PMDG planes are good but no EFB for a $70 purchase

Definite mistake by PMDG, but not all EFBs are equal (and, don't forget, all that EFB stuff exists in PMDG's FMC).

5 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Or, y'know...the PMDG 737-600 at $35. THAT is a compelling "no brainer" value.

 

So are you suggesting JF should have charged $35 for each of the Mk 1000, 2000, 3000 & 4000 variants ?

54 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

Are you being purposely deceptive? The PMDG both the -700 and -800 variant are $70/£52/65EUR . The Fenix is £50/$64/58EUR and the F28 is also, $70/£52/65EUR. All aircraft are roughly in the same price point with two, PMDG and F28 offering multiple variants upon purchase. It's a deeply simulated aircraft much like it's similarily priced counterparts so why is it less deserving simply because it's.. old?

Literally have no idea what you mean legacy flight model as all of their aircraft use the modern flight model. It's fair to argue that their ground modelling is a discussion to be had, but so is a lot of planes. While CFD would be a agurably useful addition, why is it a knock on JF for not using it but not PMDG or Fenix?

Deceptive? LoL...

The PMDG 736 is $35 and is a fun little rocket ship regional jet. The 739, with 2 variants is $50. The 737/738 offer significantly different variants in their lineup (BBJ private jet, Freighter, and Pax).

The point is, and PMDG have realized this far, far ahead of other legacy devs, that there's a HUGE pool of people who just want a SINGLE variant of many different aircraft, and not be forced to buy a bunch of nearly identical models with a fuselage plug or two and hard drive clogging liveries.

JF have quite a checkered history with their addons. Some, like the 146, are great. Some, like their Tornados, aren't up to snuff.

While you might complain about PMDG/Leonardo/Fenix pricing or business models, one thing they are never criticized about is their depth of avionics and other systems.

JF can get there, but so far, avionics are definitely a challenge for them.

It's not "less deserving", it's Less Popular. With no other compelling value prop, it needs to sell for less in the vastly greater user base of MSFS.

The MSFS "Modern" flight model is the "legacy" at this point. CFD is the new path for High Fidelity (particularly when v2024 is released). E.g., I can tell you that flying the JF 146 in X-Plane is far more satisfying than flying it in MSFS...

It's true that PMDG don't use it, but their FM is highly tuned and proven accurate, though it misses many nuances vs CFD or BET.

All those things add up. And if I'm choosing another airliner in an ever-increasing field of choices this is simply another "me, too" tubeliner at the upper end of the price scale.

9 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

So are you suggesting JF should have charged $35 for each of the Mk 1000, 2000, 3000 & 4000 variants ?

I don’t think he’s really arguing in good faith. It’s an aircraft they doesn’t personally carefully so it should be treated like scrap and priced accordingly regardless of its fidelity or variant offering. It’s not compelling to them because they don’t want it which is such a terrible argument to the validity of the pricing.
 

Anyway it doesn’t matter like @DavidP said, just don’t buy it if you don’t see value in it. JF obviously priced it that way cause the 146 did well at a similar price.

34 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

But for Yet Another Vanilla Twin Engine Airliner? Not a chance.

What are you even talking about?

Did you not follow the progress of the F28 the past almost two years?

The F28 is a complete ground up build of a super rare old school analog aircraft.

Edited July 8, 20232 yr by blueshark747

1 hour ago, Lucky38i said:

Can you explain what it is that PMDG has that JF doesn't?

A long established history of Tier 1 fidelity addons. Market competitive pricing/value. The ability to adjust to a changing environment & being more closely in tune with their customer base...shall I go on?

Quote

Are you arguing that the pneumatics, electrics, hydraulics, and so on that are simulated don't deserve merit because the aircraft is missing an FMS?

Now who's being deceptive? I've spent a good amount of time defending JFs 146 not having an FMC because the IRL aircraft modeled didn't have it. So, please, spare me the indignation.

The truth is simply that PMDG and Fenix are offering far more deeply modeled avionics that take far (FAR) more development time, while offering at least as much as JF does in all other departments.

JFs Value Prop is bringing funky planes to market at relatively high fidelity (though not always), but that is simply no longer a justification for their pricing - especially for airliner and GA addons.

To move away from circular and endless pricing debates, I want to say that I have been looking forward to the F28, but it seems to have the same issue as the CRJ, which is a weird perspective problem. Specifically, the main flight instruments in front of the pilots appear disproportionately small. I understand that they are further away from, say the glareshield, however the degree is such that it is completely unrealistic. In both the CRJ and the F28 (from the video I saw) the AI, Airpseed indicator, HSI, etc aree really small, almost like you have to squint to see them. 

In the real aircraft, the instruments are actually quite substantial in size. I was recently just on a CRJ, for example, and when looking into the flight deck I was struck by how "big" the CRTs were. 

So this is a real immersion killer for me and I don't understand why this can't be corrected--or even seemingly noticed. 

And yes, I understand that zoom--particularly wide angle--can add to this effect but my point is that this is NOT how the eye experiences the size and proportion of the primary flight instruments.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good, but this really takes away from the immersion for me that the proportions seem so completely off about the place you spend THE MOST TIME LOOKING AT from the flight deck.

 

 

1 hour ago, Fiorentoni said:

That makes no sense: PMDG & Fenix make no niche aircraft, so they can surely not show the way for a niche aircraft.

PMDG and Fenix make exceedingly complex modern airliners in a market where customers complain if the freakin FONT on the LCDs isn't correct, or the colors are the "wrong" shade of blue/green/magenta. Their investment of thousands of people-hours into writing VERY accurate FMS code is undisputed.

And yet they can figure out how to sell MORE for LESS.

Sell the simpler, lower cost to develop, less popular airliner at a lower price and watch what happens to your revenue...

Aerosoft sold literally unprecedented numbers of their CRJ for MSFS. Back when it was the only High Fidelity airliner available.

These days, this is just another tubeliner, so if you want more of my money than other devs of similar quality, give me a reason to buy it. Right now, there is none.

 

Edited July 8, 20232 yr by UrgentSiesta

3 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Deceptive? LoL...

The PMDG 736 is $35 and is a fun little rocket ship regional jet. The 739, with 2 variants is $50. The 737/738 offer significantly different variants in their lineup (BBJ private jet, Freighter, and Pax).

 

The point is, and PMDG have realized this far, far ahead of other legacy devs, that there's a HUGE pool of people who just want a SINGLE variant of many different aircraft, and not be forced to buy a bunch of nearly identical models with a fuselage plug or two and hard drive clogging liveries.

JF have quite a checkered history with their addons. Some, like the 146, are great. Some, like their Tornados, aren't up to snuff.

While you might complain about PMDG/Leonardo/Fenix pricing or business models, one thing they are never criticized about is their depth of avionics and other systems.

JF can get there, but so far, avionics are definitely a challenge for them.

It's not "less deserving", it's Less Popular. With no other compelling value prop, it needs to sell for less in the vastly greater user base of MSFS.

The MSFS "Modern" flight model is the "legacy" at this point. CFD is the new path for High Fidelity (particularly when v2024 is released). E.g., I can tell you that flying the JF 146 in X-Plane is far more satisfying than flying it in MSFS...

It's true that PMDG don't use it, but their FM is highly tuned and proven accurate, though it misses many nuances vs CFD or BET.

All those things add up. And if I'm choosing another airliner in an ever-increasing field of choices this is simply another "me, too" tubeliner at the upper end of the price scale.

You are being deceptive, notice how you mentioned the price of the 736 and the 739 but not the 738? You can argue the significant of the variance in the variants offered in the product lineup but they're still variant at the end of the day. It amazes me that you somehow will argue PMDG's pricing model but I won't open that bag of worms.

Again, what is missing in JF's recent B146 that isn't up to snuff with it's real life counterpart that the PMDG 738 is with it's real-life counterpart? You've yet to answer this, saying avionics is a challenge for them doesn't answer anything.

The irony of you saying JF needs to sell for less while you sit here, talking on a forum in a niche gaming group with highly priced DLC to offset the fact that we're in a niche gaming group compared to more popular gaming categories with way cheaper DLCs but ok sure. Whatever the case is, JF chose the price point cause it worked for the 146, there's no reason to them to change it now.

I love that PMDG gets a pass on their FM as being highly tuned and accurate, but somehow the 146's FM isn't lol. Again we're back to subjective feeling of a plane feeling better in one sim than the other, so it must be better. Do you understand that CFD, is not a flight model? it is an additional layer unto to make force calculations? Saying the Modern flight model is legacy doesn't even make any sense here.

Again, you've made it very clear that you just don't want the aircraft. Just say that, why pick everyone with opposing views to yours and reply to their comment. You literally have nearly a page of just you replying to things you don't agree with. The aircraft is simply, not your taste. You're not even bringing constructive points here, making statements with no credibility while propping up PMDG for no reason when it's not even the subject of this conversation.

Quite frankly what are you here to do? Argue in bad faith?

Sell me one variant of the F28 at $35 and it would be an insta-buy. The PMDG 736 is perhaps the best value of any (payware) aircraft ever released for any sim. I would even buy the whole package at $50. $70 for a plane with archaic technology just doesn't do it for me. It's a shame they haven't followed up on their FMS promise for the 146 yet- that is a (very) good plane but remains a questionable value. I'm not doubting the F28 will be equally good, it just doesn't have the value proposition for me, so I won't be buying it at full price.

Edited July 8, 20232 yr by kiwikat

1 hour ago, PWJT8D said:

You're being a little light on the prices of the 737's  so let's break this down. If you were to purchase the 737 package right now it would cost you $224.96 for an average of $56.24 per variant.

Just Flight is selling 4 variants of the F28 for $69.99 for an average of $17.49 per aircraft. If you want to go by PMDG's pricing model the Fokker would be extremely cheap if you had the choice to purchase individual variants.

If the B146 is anything to go by, the F28 will be an incredible addon worth the price.

No, not at all.

Why are you making the simplistic assumption that I WANT to pay EXTRA for every single variant of an aircraft?

In the 737 I only want the BBJ and the 736.

In the 146 I only want the QC and the C.Mk3.

Guess which devs get me closer to being able to choose what I want?

Based on the 146, I agree the F28 will be a great addon. But given today's plethora of high quality addons, the F28 has very little to differentiate it and still command a higher price.