MSFS tops Navigraph 2023 survey results

[Krakin 5,899]

10 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

My point is MSFS is the leader in the entertainment part of flight-siming and bringing in new users but lacks from the rest on siming as being the more realistic and that is why some others use better options (P3D or XPlane). MSFS has work to do as far as simulation instead of just being a scenery generator and gimmicks this is coming from someone who uses it Moderately it needs work (flight physics).

This thread should have  been in the Hangar Chat days ago.

What does all of that have to do with a thread discussing MSFS having the most usage? Are you saying folks have to come in and put MSFS in its place?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Krakin

[GoranM 3,813]

58 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I wasn't going to get in on this again but since you've twice now quoted a phrase I used in another thread some time ago it really seems to bother you.

I honestly forgot who said it.  I only brought it up to make a point.  Maybe it's a cultural difference.  Where I'm from, "You people" is very offensive.  As in, what kind of people?  "You guys" would've been less confronting.  

It's like "Good luck to you".  That's said here on a daily basis.  In the US, there are people who find it offensive.  As in, "Why do you think I need luck?  Do you not think I'm capable enough to do it without luck?"

58 minutes ago, threegreen said:

but if it came across as rude I apologize, it wasn't meant to be.

Forget it.  Over and done with.  I've had far worse said to me over the years.

58 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I do want to say however let's not pretend there are no XPers that do what you're referring to in what I quoted here.

I'm guessing it's the, what can be perceived as "trolling".  I'd rather not take up the forum space in here and divert away from the topic.  Contrary to some people's opinion, I hate it when topics get locked, and on more than one occasion, I've asked the mods to not lock a topic.  

I'm happy to take it private, though.  If not, then consider everything is behind us and the waters are calm once more.

Edited December 28, 2023 by GoranM

[threexgreen 3,160]

7 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I'm happy to take it private, though.  If not, then consider everything is behind us and the waters are calm once more.

I agree.

[lwt1971 7,505]

4 hours ago, Rimshot said:

I also voted flight realism as the most important factor. MSFS is very satisfactory to me in this regard. One could also conclude someone who chooses realism as the most important factor chooses MSFS as primary sim, despite flight realism being of lesser quality than other sims (as many argue), but because the total package is more appealing.

Absolutely, it is indeed about the total package. I was just pointing out these results couldn't have come about if MSFS's flight realism was as as bad/subpar as many seem to argue.. and at the end it comes down to each individual's needs in a sim and their deal breakers (i.e. the lack of historic weather support is a deal breaker for some regardless of a sim's other qualities)

Now personally for me flight realism apart from ground handling is a wash between all the sims since it ultimately comes down to aircraft implementation. We can't really say (for those 70% choosing MSFS as primary sim) exactly how they feel about MSFS's flight realism in comparison to other sims since those specific questions weren't asked, but at the very least that it meets their needs given that realism is of #1 importance to them.

Edited December 28, 2023 by lwt1971

[jarmstro 2,406]

I note that the XP12 sale has been extended to 31st Dec. So grab it while it's cheap. Whether the extension is because of the Navigraph Survey results I know not. I'm in no panic to buy though because the sale will probably be extended again. And again and again......😂

[Noel 4,572]

15 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

MSFS has work to do as far as simulation instead of just being a scenery generator

What an absolutely nonsensical characterization of MSFS as "being just a scenery generator..."  Sure, there's room for improvement in various areas of simulation, but that comment is pure nonsense. 

[abrams_tank 7,532]

35 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

 I'm in no panic to buy though because the sale will probably be extended again. And again and again......😂

🤣🤣🤣

[UrgentSiesta 945]

15 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

My point is MSFS is the leader in the entertainment part of flight-siming and bringing in new users but lacks from the rest on siming as being the more realistic and that is why some others use better options (P3D or XPlane). MSFS has work to do as far as simulation instead of just being a scenery generator and gimmicks this is coming from someone who uses it Moderately it needs work (flight physics).

This thread should have  been in the Hangar Chat days ago.

As much as I'm trying to stay on topic (e.g., it's about the NG survey rather than the sims themselves), I just can't let this one pass by...

It's bordering on disingenuous to suggest that any one of these sims is "better" than the other in general, unless one is truly unfamiliar with them - which then becomes a different issue when making such comments.

They each have strengths/advantages vs the others, which can determine which sim is the "best" fit for a particular simmer.

But to continue espousing the blatantly incorrect assertions that MSFS is "just a scenery generator and gimmicks" is just plain crazy, and has been a willfully uninformed viewpoint for quite awhile now.

MSFS is a GREAT flight simulator, for all the "right" reasons, and anyone who denies that simple fact should, well...fill in the blank for yourselves.

[UrgentSiesta 945]

14 hours ago, Tuskin38 said:

The flight physics are better than most sims out there. the aircraft devs just need to put the work into taking full advantage of them.

Most? Yes.

Seb said they're getting ready to trash the "Cessna" planform which is still at the heart of every flight model. When they trash that and we can truly have aerodynamically correct canard, swing wing, delta wings, engines everywhere, etc., it'll be at peer level or better than anything else.

Then, yes, it'll truly be up to the devs to show us the magic.

[snglecoil 1,829]

@UrgentSiesta…just stop! You’re on very dangerous ground here taking a balanced, reasonable approach. Pardon the pun, but that just ain’t gonna fly around here 😂

[lwt1971 7,505]

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Seb said they're getting ready to trash the "Cessna" planform which is still at the heart of every flight model. When they trash that and we can truly have aerodynamically correct canard, swing wing, delta wings, engines everywhere, etc., it'll be at peer level or better than anything else.

Then, yes, it'll truly be up to the devs to show us the magic.

The more detailed aircraft geometry/surfaces/etc definition capabilities in v2024 can't come soon enough! Hope all the devs don't take too long in enhancing their aircraft using this. Skilled devs are still able to in v2020 produce great FMs based on the limited geometry, using tweaks and doing other adjustments/overrides. The new geometry definition capabilities hopefully will ease the workload of tweaking for the aircraft devs.

I do like how devs such as iniBuilds, FSReborn's simbol, etc have fully embraced CFD for all their birds FMs from small to airliner size.. will be interesting to see if the other major devs also start using it at least for v2024.

Edited December 28, 2023 by lwt1971

[UrgentSiesta 945]

19 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

The more detailed aircraft geometry/surfaces/etc definition capabilities in v2024 can't come soon enough! Hope all the devs don't take too long in enhancing their aircraft using this. Skilled devs are still able to in v2020 produce great FMs based on the limited geometry, using tweaks and doing other adjustments/overrides. The new geometry definition capabilities hopefully will ease the workload of tweaking on the aircraft devs.

I do like how devs such as iniBuilds, FSReborn's simbol, etc have fully embraced CFD for all their birds FMs from small to airliner size.. will be interesting to see if the other major devs also start using it at least for v2024.

Agree!

And believe it or not, "FMs based on the limited geometry, using tweaks and doing other adjustments/overrides" exists in X-Plane, too. 😉

I'm hoping some of the shops that have struggled with CFD/NPS/SBS (like SWS and JustFlight (both of whom make some of my very favorite rides)), will circle back and come to grips with the current & future advantages of MSFS' ever-improving aero engine.

Indeed - iB & FSR are to be commended for figuring it out! Perhaps it's because they are "new" to MSFS and are more willing to detour from the traditional ESP flight model methods. It's not as vital for airliners as it is for small/high perf aircraft, but it's there and it does make a noticeable difference.

The other thing I like about Asobo's methodology is their intent focus on enabling new features without messing things up (too much) for existing addons, as well as their demonstrated commitment to back-porting some of v2024s pending improvements.

I mean really, I can't but smile when I think about how much my enjoyment of flight sim has grown all round in the last several years. 🙂

[DD_Arthur 1,109]

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Seb said they're getting ready to trash the "Cessna" planform which is still at the heart of every flight model. When they trash that and we can truly have aerodynamically correct canard, swing wing, delta wings, engines everywhere, etc., it'll be at peer level or better than anything 

That'll be the work of this man.....

 

[Krakin 5,899]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

That'll be the work of this man.....

His CV is pretty impressive:

 

Quote

• 22 years extensive experience in research and physics core development for three different PC game combat flight simulator titles.
• Founder and C++ developer of innovative tehnologies and highly realistic real-time flight models, damage models, aircraft systems and engine models, most of which were revolutionary at the time of their creation.
• Experience in flight dynamics research and flight test data processing for actual fighter planes (JSC Sukhoi Company).
• Deep understanding of flight physics, based both on formal education and practical flight experience (1100 hrs in both powered and unpowered aircraft; FAA PPL and CFI-S certificates) including instruction, sport aerobatics, close formation flight, and towing operations.
• You may also know me as "An.Petrovich" on the flight sims forums since 2000.

I wouldn't put all of the work down to him tho. We can't forget that Seb is also a very talented programmer himself and has done some impressive work considering his limited background in aviation before working on MSFS. But either way, it is reasonable to imagine that Andre is the point man now and going by the FSExpo presentation, you can tell that Seb has a ton of respect for him so they probably work well together.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Krakin

[SAS443 1,746]

17 minutes ago, Krakin said:

His CV is pretty impressive:

Totally unnecessary skills for a scenery simulator aimed at Xbox crowd. What are they thinking.

They should bring in Michael Bay instead so we can have moar special effects and dramatic scenery. + Fire balls.