PMDG Dev update 01/27/2024 More 777 Previews

[Damian Clark 1,273]

12 hours ago, evaamo said:

I've been a PMDG customer since the FLY! days... that's what? 25 years ago?

Yep!  I have fond memories of working on the PMDG 757 and 767 Fly! Airliner series in 1997-1999 IIRC.

Regarding RSR, I've got to back him up a little here...  While he can say the wrong things at times, and sure he's got an ego (ever met an accomplished pilot who didn't? 🤣), he is extremely passionate and really cares, possibly more than anyone else I've ever met, about his customers, products, and their quality and fidelity.  I think this gets interpreted poorly many times (and he's got to own this, and I think he has - a work in progress).  This business can get tough and demanding, the effort to create new products is immense, and emotions can get the best of us.  I'm not excusing anything, but just giving a little alternate perspective.

[pete_auau 1,171]

6 minutes ago, Damian Clark said:

Yep!  I have fond memories of working on the PMDG 757 and 767 Fly! Airliner series in 1997-1999 IIRC.

Regarding RSR, I've got to back him up a little here...  While he can say the wrong things at times, and sure he's got an ego (ever met an accomplished pilot who didn't? 🤣), he is extremely passionate and really cares, possibly more than anyone else I've ever met, about his customers, products, and their quality and fidelity.  I think this gets interpreted poorly many times (and he's got to own this, and I think he has - a work in progress).  This business can get tough and demanding, the effort to create new products is immense, and emotions can get the best of us.  I'm not excusing anything, but just giving a little alternate perspective.

Yep agree

[Christopher Low 5,400]

I do understand the LNAV criticism, and it would be nice to see the updated LNAV code in the near future. I am a little biased here, in that I do not fly the PMDG 737 rigorously by the book like a lot of you guys do. In other words, if I do not particularly like a real world approach at a specific airport, I just use the IAN approach feature as a handy back up plan It does not matter to me if this is strictly accurate in real world terms. I just make the product work for me in any way that it can.

Edited January 29 by Christopher Low

[inker 12]

35 minutes ago, Damian Clark said:

he is extremely passionate and really cares, possibly more than anyone else I've ever met, about his customers, products, and their quality and fidelity.  I think this gets interpreted poorly many times (and he's got to own this, and I think he has - a work in progress). 

I really, really don't see this. If he is so passionate, as opposed to being in this solely for the money/his ego, why is everything they do the bare minimum. Where is the cabin, the new LNAV. Why were they not working on the table for so long, and even now where are the update to it (eg. to control settings/load the aircraft). What about the circuitbrakers? Oh I forgot, they focus on the day to day operations or whatever excuse he comes up with next.

There is a decently well known german speaking 737 (now) captain who streams and has been on their beta team, but has since left. If you speak german I think you know who I mean, but he has really opened my eyes as he went into detail on why he's so frustrated with them both on the state of things but more importantly on their unwillingness/incapability to listen and work on the items they report. Things get waved aside all the time and are not progressing.

The truth is they have their codebases from decades ago, they patch something in every once in a while and retexture it. There is no innovation. Only reputation of things passed, and they will continue to milk their rehashed planes for as long as there is no competition.

Since apparently I'm an word not allowed I actually listened to some interviews RR did. I remember distinctly during one such interview he was asked what other planes he likes to fly in flightsim. I think any of us could name a competitor and say some good things about it. Not RR, apparently he has no time to fly and if so only flies his own planes. That hints at two things, he's got no clue what the competition is doing, and two he doesn't care. In another interview he went on and on about how's dining with Senators and having them over at his house and that's why you need to sign your name on their forums. The guy just rubs me the wrong way all around.

[EGLD 441]

what is wrong with PMDG LNAV?

maybe I shouldn't ask as I'm clearly not noticing and it will probably ruin my experience of the 737!

[Lucky38i 1,110]

34 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

I do understand the LNAV criticism, and it would be nice to see the updated LNAV code in the near future. I am a little biased here, in that I do not fly the PMDG 737 rigorously by the book like a lot of you guys do. In other words, if I do not particularly like a real world approach at a specific airport, I just use the IAN approach feature as a handy back up plan It does not matter to me if this is strictly accurate in real world terms. I just make the product work for me in any way that it can.

It’s interesting to see this kind of complacency placed on devs that marketed the term study level for the past 2 decades all while still lacking a modern feature of RNAV capable aircraft, ARINC 429 (or was it 424) compliancy. All while various other devs need to deal with extremely granular levels of scrutiny.

it reminds me of the release of Baldur’s Gate 3 and several developers of other games mentioned that this not the norm, that we shouldn’t except this kind of quality out of a product. My question is why? Why should we not be critical and expect more out of the companys we happily support with our hard earned funds? Why should we be complacent with.. just okay at these price points?

Honestly, as a customer I don’t see anything wrong with expecting correct behaviour from a product of its price point. Especially when said feature has been a topic of discussion for nearly a decade at this point.

Edited January 29 by Lucky38i

[thepilot 595]

1 hour ago, Damian Clark said:

Yep!  I have fond memories of working on the PMDG 757 and 767 Fly! Airliner series in 1997-1999 IIRC.

Regarding RSR, I've got to back him up a little here...  While he can say the wrong things at times, and sure he's got an ego (ever met an accomplished pilot who didn't? 🤣), he is extremely passionate and really cares, possibly more than anyone else I've ever met, about his customers, products, and their quality and fidelity.  I think this gets interpreted poorly many times (and he's got to own this, and I think he has - a work in progress).  This business can get tough and demanding, the effort to create new products is immense, and emotions can get the best of us.  I'm not excusing anything, but just giving a little alternate perspective.

The NG3 still has bugs that the old NGX from 2011 had... sure they did quite a few improvements, added some features, but overall they reused the code every time through and charged full price for it. He announces so much stuff (GFO, Rainmaker, secret project, P3D updates, LNAV improvement, Navdata encoding, did I forget anything?) that never materialize or with years delay. When you query him on that, as long time customer even, he gets all emotional and basically calls you a liar, even when you show his own forum posts as proof. 

[Jeeeno 314]

Current B737 bugs and missing feature that will probably be ported over to the 777 and will very much likely be never corrected. Probably a few items are missing in the list below

1. EGT engine figures wrong. Too high in every phase of flight
2. Too aggressive VNAV behaviour resulting in overshooting the profile especially during descent
3. Questionable LOC intercept: sometimes it intercepts LOC too early and the aircraft is forced to turn in the other direction even if you keep airspeed constant during the intercept
4. Overshooting TGT speed with AP and A/T
5. Wonky LNAV behaviour: 25° bank turn at cruise level, RF completely missing
6. Inserting QNH in DES FORECAST page doesn't have any effect at all
7. Wrong FD pitch attitude in the initial climb after lift off
8. Regarding initial climb after takeoff sometimes the aircraft "runs out of trim available", especially noticeable in the BBJ at low weights
9. Absolutely abysmal ground physics behaviour
10. Horrible wingflex: there are a lot of FREEWARE aircrafts with a much better simulation
11. Useless windscreen wipers. When it rains a lot, you can't see anything outside

 

Edited January 29 by Jeeeno

[bobcat999 8,525]

15 minutes ago, inker said:

I really, really don't see this. If he is so passionate, as opposed to being in this solely for the money/his ego, why is everything they do the bare minimum. Where is the cabin, the new LNAV. Why were they not working on the table for so long, and even now where are the update to it (eg. to control settings/load the aircraft). What about the circuitbrakers? Oh I forgot, they focus on the day to day operations or whatever excuse he comes up with next.

There is a decently well known german speaking 737 (now) captain who streams and has been on their beta team, but has since left. If you speak german I think you know who I mean, but he has really opened my eyes as he went into detail on why he's so frustrated with them both on the state of things but more importantly on their unwillingness/incapability to listen and work on the items they report. Things get waved aside all the time and are not progressing.

The truth is they have their codebases from decades ago, they patch something in every once in a while and retexture it. There is no innovation. Only reputation of things passed, and they will continue to milk their rehashed planes for as long as there is no competition.

Since apparently I'm an word not allowed I actually listened to some interviews RR did. I remember distinctly during one such interview he was asked what other planes he likes to fly in flightsim. I think any of us could name a competitor and say some good things about it. Not RR, apparently he has no time to fly and if so only flies his own planes. That hints at two things, he's got no clue what the competition is doing, and two he doesn't care. In another interview he went on and on about how's dining with Senators and having them over at his house and that's why you need to sign your name on their forums. The guy just rubs me the wrong way all around.

Firstly, I am no fan of his, because I do see how he operates sometimes.  Plus, I understand he has a business, so part of what he does is simply wanting to make money - quite natural and understood.

But I don't know how people can get so bent out of shape over a guy developing a pretend pixel plane that hasn't even launched yet.  Also, you know you don't have to buy it, right?  Nobody is forcing you.  

I was quite neutral before, but the more I read this kind of stuff, I almost want to come out in support of him after looking at all the personal attacks towards him.
If fact, if I was him facing this kind of vitriol, I would say "here is my plane, this is what it does, if you don't want it, go away!". 
He is not enslaved to peoples demands about putting a cabin in his plane, or circuit breakers, that's not how it works.

So, I have to ask, as that is your first post, did you create that forum profile just to come on here to attack him?  Because from what I can see, he isn't a criminal, and this is all well over the top about someone who is developing fairly decent quality pretend planes.

[pete_auau 1,171]

Just now, bobcat999 said:

I was quite neutral before, but the more I read this kind of stuff, I almost want to come out in support of him after looking at all the personal attacks towards him.

Happens  all  the  time  in here  when  a new  thread  on  pmdg appears

[lwt1971 7,468]

4 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

But I don't know how people can get so bent out of shape over a guy developing a pretend pixel plane that hasn't even launched yet.  Also, you know you don't have to buy it, right?  Nobody is forcing you.  
...
If fact, if I was him facing this kind of vitriol, I would say "here is my plane, this is what it does, if you don't want it, go away!". 

Agreed.. the amount of teeth gnashing and whining about RSR on any PMDG related post is certainly something to behold. I prefer to evaluate the product on their own without letting any of the devs' personalities get in the way, although I get how sometimes that can be hard 🙂 

I've read the specific post and all the responses on https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/281875-27jan24-we-have-been-busy-and-travelling-but-we-are-hard-at-work?p=281998#post281998, and RSR, on his own forum with their house rules, has every right to say what he did to that specific post. The quote by that OP was "I will definitively not be a "day one purchaser". THIS will certainly be one of the requirements for me. ANOTHER round of 777s without this capability would be embarrassing." to which RSR responded the way he did. For anyone who comes into their forum and says I will not buy this instantly and how it is "embarrassing" this feature is not implemented yet, RSR can certainly respond the way he did.. yes he could've been nicer, but so what if he was not. I get how some devs have an infinite amount of patience in dealing with certain customers, but then other devs don't, it is what it is.

All that said, Stearmandriver's initial point and subsequent response on this post was very level-headed and nothing for RSR to get angry about (and obviously a lot on their forum think so too since it has 50+ likes along with their own similar responses.. so it's also not true that a lot on their forum are blind worshippers like some here make it seem).. RSR hasn't responded yet but will be interesting to see if he does.

Bottom line, PMDG continues to deliver stellar add-ons, are doing extremely well business-wise with MSFS, so well they've expanded and are big enough to work on multiple projects in parallel, their 737 got voted the #1 flight sim add-on/product in the 2023 Navigraph survey, etc etc.. no amount of vitriol towards a specific personality on the PMDG team is gonna change that 🤷‍♂️
 

Edited January 29 by lwt1971

[micstatic 4,340]

5 hours ago, Damian Clark said:

Yep!  I have fond memories of working on the PMDG 757 and 767 Fly! Airliner series in 1997-1999 IIRC.

Regarding RSR, I've got to back him up a little here...  While he can say the wrong things at times, and sure he's got an ego (ever met an accomplished pilot who didn't? 🤣), 

True.  Like the old saying goes.  How do you know a pilot is in the room?  

Just be quiet and he will tell you

[inker 12]

5 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

He is not enslaved to peoples demands about putting a cabin in his plane, or circuit breakers, that's not how it works.

Nobody is saying anything different. He can build his products as he likes. My response was to someone saying how passionate he is about his planes/product, and IMO if someone is extremely passionate they wouldn't just launch products that don't raise the bar. Look at A2A. Appologies I forgot the guys name ATM, but THAT is passion. This is someone that will in interviews talk about for however long you let him how a spark plug will do X/Y in this or that conditions. That is a guy that implemented a virtual walkaround (and a table from the start, but hey hows counting) and ground breaking flight models and didn't just do the bare minimum.

5 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

So, I have to ask, as that is your first post, did you create that forum profile just to come on here to attack him?  Because from what I can see, he isn't a criminal, and this is all well over the top about someone who is developing fairly decent quality pretend planes.

I've had an account for many many years. And I've been a PMDG customer for many many years too. Not that it has anything to do with what I'm saying but hey since you've felt to need to mention it.

Edited January 29 by inker

[JBDB-MD80 1,492]

27 minutes ago, inker said:

 Look at A2A. Appologies I forgot the guys name ATM, but THAT is passion. This is someone that will in interviews talk about for however long you let him how a spark plug will do X/Y in this or that conditions. That is a guy that implemented a virtual walkaround (and a table from the start, but hey hows counting) and ground breaking flight models and didn't just do the bare minimum.

 

Scott Gentile runs A2A and one of the best in the business in flight simulation and not just throwing products out there that are not ready just to make money (this has nothing to do with PMDG).

Edited January 29 by JBDB-MD80

[threexgreen 3,160]

I'm kind of in both camps here. There is a lot of nonsense thrown at PMDG for the smallest things and some get bent out of shape over a flight sim addon dev like they've been personally attacked by him at dinner. However, questioning his 'promises' of certain features that have been teased for a decade is fair and his reply here is uncalled for and just off. With the sentiment many feel towards them these days it's not helping his case either.

What I don't understand is why he replied like that to Ephedrin. I was (still am though inactive) on the GFO beta team together with Epehdrin - on PMDG's own invitation when they were looking to up the demand on GFO infrastructure. Ephedrin has always been supportive and positive and I guess what some would feel the need to call an RSR fan.boi. I don't understand why RSR would direct a response like that at him and accuse him of attempting to constantly make others unhappy. Also, @Stearmandriver has always been fair and many times supportive of PMDG too.

RSR's response here is harsh towards anyone but why it hit these two of all people is strange.