12 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

Wow! I notice certain people are becoming absolutely staunch defenders of MS / Asobo just lately no matter what the situation.  

I suppose an expensive invite to a preview event can grip some people.

I say again, a beta would have been relevant to try to catch these situations.  That was the system we had previously and was working well.  Only one party is at blame for not running through a beta.

LOL. You must be new. I've (rightfully) been defending this software since it became available in 2020, so your frankly vulgar and crass insinuations are late to the party. 

That being said, the fact that you are incapable to have this conversation without personal attacks says more about you than about me. 

Betas have a cost, both in terms of time and in terms of money. The scope of this update simply did not warrant one. And the fact that one part of one add-on (not even all of it, since Navigraph is usable without its Airac) is nonfunctional doesn't change that.

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by Abriael

9 minutes ago, BrammyH said:

I am truly having a hard time with this one.

Ok. MS told us last week that AAU3 is coming out today.

They did not make pre-release code available to anyone to test.

Navigraph therefore was unable to even see this was going to be a problem until this morning.

Yet, this is Navigraph's fault? What steps are you thinking Navigraph could take with this one?

It's at least on MS they tossed this one over the fence without giving anyone a chance to test.

It's NOT Navigraph's fault.

It's NOT Microsoft's fault.

It's just reality. And NG will issue a patch in the near future and things will be just peachy again.

flood lights are broken in the Neo cockpit, inibuilds has filed the issue.

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

I'm not asking for MS to test updates with every add-on.  If it was a random scenery or airplane I dont think anyone would fret.  But there is constant chatter from the community that maybe MS doesnt really care about the true simmer market (Since it seems most priorities are for visual improvements, career etc. leaving lots of the other stuff untouched).  MS will come to conferences and tell us about how they hear us etc. Yet its now quite clear that no one on the private beta team even has Navigraph installed which is like something 80-90% of hardcore simmers have.  Just brings more into focus how out of touch with our niche they might actually be.

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by nrunning24

16 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

It's just reality. And NG will issue a patch in the near future and things will be just peachy again.

True. For whatever reason, MS didn't follow their usual practice of releasing a beta which would have caught this. It also looks like navdata was updated as part of the AAU. Navigraph also tried just recompiling the data and that didn't fix it. 

19 minutes ago, Abriael said:

No one said it's Navigraph's fault. 

It's navigraph's responsibility. 

IE: an incompatibility is found, and now it's Navigraph's responsibility to either find a solution on their side or reach out for help. Their response "it's a sim problem" is highly irresponsible. 

The sim works. Navigraph does not. It's a Navigraph problem.

Again, there are thousands of add-ons for MSFS. It isn't MS or Asobo's responsibility to make sure they keep working with every update. Hence, you're barking at the wrong tree. 

No. It is not. Again, who decides which add-ons should be tested against? Where do you draw the line? Microsoft/Asobo have one responsibility, and it's for Microsoft Flight Simulator to work. It's the responsibility of every addon's developer to make sure that their add-ons work with the base software. 

The $2 Trillion company decides what their baseline test suite is, what addons they will include,  and then it sets up automated tests that run against each build. But anyway, since you dont' seem to think that MS has any responsibility as a platform maker, no point continuing this. You can defend MSFS, I don't really care either way.

I know that they should test the biggest addons (and they likely have telemetery to tell them which ones are the big ones), and releasing without a dev/beta test straight to cause CTDs is a bad look. You can keep saying MSFS is not to blame, that's cool, that's your opinion and you have a right to it!

3 minutes ago, JonathanC said:

You can keep saying MSFS is not to blame, that's cool, that's your opinion and you have a right to it!

It's not an opinion, it's fact.

5 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

It's not an opinion, it's fact.

They aren't to blame, but the PR on this release is horrible.  No one on the closed beta has Navigraph? No wonder none of the things hardcore simmers care about get fixed.  Mask is off, literally none of the dev's or wider closed beta team treat this as a sim on their own computer.  

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by nrunning24

This crash doesn't happen with the external Navigraph navdata used by PMDG and Fenix and others.

It's just specifically the navdata that you install in the community folder via the Navigraph Hub.

  

4 minutes ago, nrunning24 said:

They aren't to blame, but the PR on this release is horrible.  No one on the closed beta has Navigraph? No wonder none of the things hardcore simmers care about don't get fixed.  Mask is off, literally none of the dev's or wider closed beta team treat this as a sim on their own computer.  

Because again, it's not up to them to test addons.

The sim itself has the latest AIRAC cycle anyways. Why would they use redundant external data?

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

It’s so weird for them not to do a beta first. Asobo/MS have been through this before, learned their lesson with the early SUs and I’d say have been on a good streak of stable patches.

So why suddenly ignore what they learned and just dump this out?

Apparently it’s not just the Navigraph data that breaks, a few planes have issues too. All would have been avoided with a beta first.

And it is their fault - and I say this as a staunch supporter. You are running a platform - sure it’s not your job to test every add on - but it’s up to you to set a testing strategy that accounts for that fact. Not just YOLO a patch out and hope for the best.

1 minute ago, Tuskin38 said:

This crash doesn't happen with the external Navigraph navdata used by PMDG and Fenix, so those aircraft are fine to use.

  

Because again, it's not up to them to test addons.

yes its not up to them you obviously dont get my point. Its just sad that none of them even have the addon, in the sense that these are the people making planning and developing decisions for the future of the program.  Not one has Navigraph that's crazy.  Sure NavData for those planes are fine, but there are lots of people using airplanes and ATC solution that use the FS base nav data that Navigraph updates.

1 minute ago, Georgleboui said:

So why suddenly ignore what they learned and just dump this out?

They're probably too busy with 2024.

  

Just now, nrunning24 said:

Its just sad that none of them even have the addon

No it's not.

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

Is it mandatory update OR it might be skipped?

1 minute ago, Tuskin38 said:

No it's not.

Its not sad that all the people responsible for development and improvement of a game/sim you enjoy use it in a completely different way than you and therefore likely have drastically different wish lists for improvements or goals for a future version?  I'm not mad at them but it is sad.

24 minutes ago, JonathanC said:

The $2 Trillion company decides what their baseline test suite is

Mentioning their company value is disingenuous. Only a minimal fraction of that is budgeted for MSFS.

And if you knew anything at all about game development or software development in general, you would know that the "baseline test suite" is always the vanilla software without add-ons, as add-ons create too much variability in an environment that already has tons due to hardware. 

There's a reason why they ALWAYS tell people to install new update with their community folder empty. 

I "defend MSFS" because attacking them is a sign of ignorance. 

16 minutes ago, nrunning24 said:

They aren't to blame, but the PR on this release is horrible.  No one on the closed beta has Navigraph? No wonder none of the things hardcore simmers care about get fixed.  Mask is off, literally none of the dev's or wider closed beta team treat this as a sim on their own computer.

This kind of completely unsubstantiated sweeping statement attacking the competence of developers when something minor (because make no mistake, this is a minor issue) goes wrong based on entirely wrong assumptions is quite typical of the least logical subset of gamers. 

They don't test with Navigraph or other add-ons because that's how software testing is done. With the clean software. That's industry standard. Using add-ons complicates matters beyond the manageable and anyone who has ever done QA work will happily tell you that.

If they tested their patches with add-ons installed, including navigraph, they'd be pretty literally doing it wrong, as each add-on would be an obstacle to finding where any problem that pops up is actually located, 

Edited October 1, 20241 yr by Abriael