22 minutes ago, tpete61 said:

It's a game, not a level D simulator.

I think your expectation is totally unrealistic.

As you can see the majority of people on this thread don't see it as a problem.

I think you are beating a dead horse!

No, I believe you are mistaken. Numerous individuals here can attest that my expectations are entirely reasonable and are grounded in the standards established by this company's own previous products. Those earlier releases demonstrated a far higher level of accuracy, fidelity, and attention to detail than what is being discussed here.

No one is suggesting that a consumer flight simulator product should replicate a Level D simulator. That is a strawman argument. The expectation is simply that the product should meet the level of quality and system accuracy that the developer itself has successfully achieved in the past. When a company has already demonstrated that standard, it is neither unrealistic nor unreasonable for customers to expect it to be maintained.

It is also worth noting here that any faulty vertical calibrations of controllers would result in either a sudden pitch down or a sudden pitch up. They would not induce a repetitive "bounce". It is that "bounce" that I find to be unrealistic, and LRBS (having been a real world pilot of the 777) has confirmed this.

I see a similarity here with the "missing AI landing gear" problem. I suspect that those who are saying that they never see this issue actually mean that it does not bother them.

Edited Thursday at 04:01 PM2 days by Christopher Low

1 hour ago, Christopher Low said:

It is also worth noting here that any faulty vertical calibrations of controllers would result in either a sudden pitch down or a sudden pitch up. They would not induce a repetitive "bounce". It is that "bounce" that I find to be unrealistic, and LRBS (having been a real world pilot of the 777) has confirmed this.

I see a similarity here with the "missing AI landing gear" problem. I suspect that those who are saying that they never see this issue actually mean that it does not bother them.

I have to disagree with you. I cannot reproduce any nose bouncing up and down. If I did, I would have summited a ticket to PMDG a long time ago. I've summitted several tickets to them and to date the only one they were not able to fix was the Nav data update using the EFB on all the 777's. The work around was to use the navigraph hub to stay current. But I took off on a flight earlier today, after hand flying to about 1000 ft, I engaged the AP and it continued to my assigned altitude perfectly. No nose pitching up or down. Sorry I cannot reproduced your issues.

5 hours ago, LRBS said:

Since you understand the issue, I want to summarize areas where the PMDG coding needs improvement and offer guidance for those unfamiliar, thinking that there is no issue, at least for this TRS, in simplified mode for now. 

The Boeing 777's Trim Reference Speed (TRS) or speed-trim function is one of the most misunderstood aspects of the fly-by-wire system.

What the real Boeing 777 does

Unlike conventional aircraft, the 777's elevators are controlled through the FBW computers. The aircraft is designed so that the pilot does not continuously trim for speed changes in the traditional sense.

The 777 automatically establishes and maintains a trimmed speed based on the current flight condition.

In practice

Suppose you're hand-flying:

• The aircraft is stabilized at 250 knots.

• You release the control column.

• The FBW system trims the aircraft so that 250 knots becomes the reference speed.

Now:

• If a gust increases speed above 250 knots, the airplane naturally tends to return toward the trimmed speed.

• If speed decreases below 250 knots, the airplane tends to pitch down and accelerate back toward the trimmed speed.

The airplane behaves as though it "remembers" the speed at which it was trimmed.

This is one reason many pilots describe the 777 as exceptionally stable and easy to hand-fly.

---

What the pilot feels

When you pull and hold back pressure:

• The aircraft slows down.

• As long as you hold the pressure, the new speed is not yet established.

When you relax the pressure:

• The FBW system gradually trims the aircraft.

• The new speed becomes the trim reference speed.

The airplane now tends to maintain that speed.

This is very different from a conventional Boeing like the 737 where trim primarily relieves control forces but does not create the same speed-stability behavior.

---

During approach

The system continuously adjusts for:

• Flap extension

• Gear extension

• Thrust changes

• CG changes

• Fuel burn

The pilot rarely needs to think about trim.

The airplane simply remains close to the desired speed when properly configured.

---

What is missing in PMDG's 777

This is one of the areas frequently noted by real 777 pilots and experienced sim users.

Missing or buggy behavior

The PMDG 777 does not correctly reproduce the real airplane's:

1. Trim Reference Speed logic

2. Speed stability characteristics

3. Column-force-to-speed relationship

4. Dynamic FBW trimming laws

5. Pitch/speed coupling

In the real aircraft:

• Pull and release → a new trimmed speed is established.

• Push and release → a different trimmed speed is established.

• The aircraft then tends to return to that speed.

In PMDG:

• The speed-hold tendency is weaker.

• Pitch attitude tends to dominate rather than trim-reference speed.

• Changes in speed do not always produce the same natural restoring tendencies seen in the real aircraft.

Unfortunately, I don't think PMDG is capable or willing to fix these issues, including even the LNAV problem.

I know why we absolutely want these things IRL, but in a simulator…?

This is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps me flying GA.

Since I can’t fly IRL any longer, I want to at least be responsible for doing all the things in-sim.

I spend enough time fighting with computers (and computer users) as it is 🤣

Btw, please don’t take this to mean I’m excusing PMDG or other devs not implementing these things to a reasonable degree. 🤙

1 hour ago, Bigmack said:

I have to disagree with you. I cannot reproduce any nose bouncing up and down. If I did, I would have summited a ticket to PMDG a long time ago. I've summitted several tickets to them and to date the only one they were not able to fix was the Nav data update using the EFB on all the 777's. The work around was to use the navigraph hub to stay current. But I took off on a flight earlier today, after hand flying to about 1000 ft, I engaged the AP and it continued to my assigned altitude perfectly. No nose pitching up or down. Sorry I cannot reproduced your issues.

In the real Boeing 777, the FBW system automatically maintains altitude in turns of up to including 30 degrees of bank without requiring pilot trim input. It continuously trims the aircraft to a target speed, which then becomes the reference speed. The system also compensates for changes in configuration and aircraft state, including flap and gear extension, thrust variations, center-of-gravity shifts, fuel burn, and numerous other factors.

These characteristics become particularly evident when the aircraft is hand-flown. For example, during a visual circuit or a light-fuel ferry flight—perhaps 30 tonnes of fuel, no passengers, operating at 5,000 feet on a short sector such as KJFK to KEWR—the shortcomings become readily apparent. When the autopilot is engaged, most users will never notice them.

I am not attempting to be condescending. Some individuals will recognize and understand these concepts to varying degrees, while others will strongly disagree regardless of the available evidence. That is simply the nature of these discussions.

It is worth remembering that a pilot transitioning onto an aircraft of this complexity typically undergoes weeks of intensive training involving classroom instruction, computer-based training, systems study, and simulator sessions. Even then, mastering the aircraft and fully understanding its systems takes considerable time and experience.

What I find disappointing is that discussions often reach a point where documented aircraft behavior, manufacturer publications, and the observations of qualified pilots with real-world experience are dismissed because they conflict with personal opinions or subjective impressions.

At times, I can understand why many current and former airline pilots choose not to engage in these debates. When objective information is repeatedly challenged by those who have already decided what they believe, meaningful technical discussion becomes increasingly difficult.

Enjoy your day, folks!

Edited Thursday at 07:25 PM2 days by LRBS

Well, the "bounce" happens with autopilot engaged on my PC. Please note that it does not happen all of the time. Only now and again. It's just that when it does happen, it kills a rather large part of the immersion.

EDIT: I have just noticed that a PMDG beta tester has responded in my thread on the PMDG forum to say that "it is on the bug list. It is a matter of priorities". That kinda indicates that a problem has been identified.

Edited Thursday at 07:48 PM2 days by Christopher Low

I think they did a solid job in replicating the 777. I haven’t flown one in real life, but have flown complex airplanes, and it at least feels like you’re flying a large airliner. I do feel like PMDG is constantly behind in implementing new technology in the planes such as the BATC support, and having to use 3rd party sounds from Boris, and their stubbornness of using the community for new ideas and concepts.

I think the FBW concept on the triple is more complex than the airbus. And on the Airbus you fly using a joystick where you don’t really get the feel of the airplane opposed to a yoke. I have an airbus joystick and fly the 777 with it. I’m happy with it, I don’t notice any oscillations and flies like a big Airbus. Now if I had a yoke instead I may have a different opinion, it’s just a different way of flying. Besides it’s a game, FS2024 is limited, yes it may implement real temperature, pressures and wind from the real world, but the airplane in the sim isn’t going to pick up on all those details. Otherwise we could all get a type rating on these airplanes in the simulator.

I use a CH Flightstick Pro joystick with the PMDG 777, and I am not even touching it when the "bounce" happens.

4 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I use a CH Flightstick Pro joystick with the PMDG 777, and I am not even touching it when the "bounce" happens.

Some clarification is required regarding this new update. For an unknown reason, some users did not receive the update despite the release date. Although I was up to date (and this happened to other colleagues), they were advised to try a few times again. It appears the issue is related to version 2.4.140. After the update, we've observed some improvements in certain FBW logic, but there are now occasional micro-bounces with or without AP. As you were informed, this is on the "bug list". We'll see how long it takes to resolve. The LNAV issue, unfortunately, is unlikely to be fixed, as it still involves bouncing left/right before specific waypoints and requires fine-tuning of the entire APFD system.

I wonder if you could increase the deadzone on your CH Flightstick Pro joystick, or even disconnect it, and see if the bounce persists.

4 hours ago, AndreRotate said:

I think the FBW concept on the triple is more complex than the airbus

4 hours ago, AndreRotate said:

I think the FBW concept on the triple is more complex than the airbus.

Actually, it's a very light hybrid. Personally, I prefer AB, but don't get me wrong, the 777 flies very nicely.

7 hours ago, LRBS said:

In the real Boeing 777, the FBW system automatically maintains altitude in turns of up to including 30 degrees of bank without requiring pilot trim input. It continuously trims the aircraft to a target speed, which then becomes the reference speed. The system also compensates for changes in configuration and aircraft state, including flap and gear extension, thrust variations, center-of-gravity shifts, fuel burn, and numerous other factors.

These characteristics become particularly evident when the aircraft is hand-flown. For example, during a visual circuit or a light-fuel ferry flight—perhaps 30 tonnes of fuel, no passengers, operating at 5,000 feet on a short sector such as KJFK to KEWR—the shortcomings become readily apparent. When the autopilot is engaged, most users will never notice them.

I am not attempting to be condescending. Some individuals will recognize and understand these concepts to varying degrees, while others will strongly disagree regardless of the available evidence. That is simply the nature of these discussions.

It is worth remembering that a pilot transitioning onto an aircraft of this complexity typically undergoes weeks of intensive training involving classroom instruction, computer-based training, systems study, and simulator sessions. Even then, mastering the aircraft and fully understanding its systems takes considerable time and experience.

What I find disappointing is that discussions often reach a point where documented aircraft behavior, manufacturer publications, and the observations of qualified pilots with real-world experience are dismissed because they conflict with personal opinions or subjective impressions.

At times, I can understand why many current and former airline pilots choose not to engage in these debates. When objective information is repeatedly challenged by those who have already decided what they believe, meaningful technical discussion becomes increasingly difficult.

Enjoy your day, folks!

I for one, thank you for your knowledgeable and insightful posts here. I wholly agree with you, too. If PMDG wants to claim they make the best plane addons and have the reputation for making the most realistic desktop sim of Boeing planes (which they do), then I think they should be listening to what you have to say. Unfortunately, PMDG isn’t the same company it used to be. They used to be pioneers who innovated and now they’re just happy to sit back, port over the same 3-4 planes to a new platform and count their cash, which is fine — but they can’t make claims that they are anywhere near the best anymore or that they care about replicating as close to a 1:1 version of the airplane on a desktop sim that they can.

Edited yesterday at 02:54 AM1 day by Bdub22

10 hours ago, Bdub22 said:

I for one, thank you for your knowledgeable and insightful posts here. I wholly agree with you, too. If PMDG wants to claim they make the best plane addons and have the reputation for making the most realistic desktop sim of Boeing planes (which they do), then I think they should be listening to what you have to say. Unfortunately, PMDG isn’t the same company it used to be. They used to be pioneers who innovated and now they’re just happy to sit back, port over the same 3-4 planes to a new platform and count their cash, which is fine — but they can’t make claims that they are anywhere near the best anymore or that they care about replicating as close to a 1:1 version of the airplane on a desktop sim that they can.

Thank you for the kind words.

Unfortunately, two more issues surface with this PMDG 777. Not happening with the PMDG 737 or other product. NOT a NAVIGRAPH issue.  On the legs page, the RWY end will show twice.

I really wonder where the quality check is? Seriously, the implications are quite astonishing, from not knowing what to check before releasing to the public to failing to verify the legs page sequence and procedures, VNAV functionality, and fuel.  Mistake after mistake, and people get upset when these issues are brought to light.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/euum67pli2w3m8w3au3qo/777.png?rlkey=l94z0fwhjxxemk0g60kcqc3c7&st=cjc9j8l0&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w56q9dnq8iikcxaruru1/3of3.png?rlkey=isdqvwiv77d9ux85m21sqb2al&st=z17crzcv&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/943z1tbjh5lsjlfdup6fp/2of3.png?rlkey=3iljf6zxppmffqq6wbli9wb3v&st=t1vpahfp&dl=0

Edited yesterday at 01:57 PM1 day by LRBS

On 6/11/2026 at 4:08 PM, LRBS said:

Since you understand the issue, I want to summarize areas where the PMDG coding needs improvement and offer guidance for those unfamiliar, thinking that there is no issue, at least for this TRS, in simplified mode for now. 

The Boeing 777's Trim Reference Speed (TRS) or speed-trim function is one of the most misunderstood aspects of the fly-by-wire system.

What the real Boeing 777 does

Unlike conventional aircraft, the 777's elevators are controlled through the FBW computers. The aircraft is designed so that the pilot does not continuously trim for speed changes in the traditional sense.

The 777 automatically establishes and maintains a trimmed speed based on the current flight condition.

In practice

Suppose you're hand-flying:

• The aircraft is stabilized at 250 knots.

• You release the control column.

• The FBW system trims the aircraft so that 250 knots becomes the reference speed.

Now:

• If a gust increases speed above 250 knots, the airplane naturally tends to return toward the trimmed speed.

• If speed decreases below 250 knots, the airplane tends to pitch down and accelerate back toward the trimmed speed.

The airplane behaves as though it "remembers" the speed at which it was trimmed.

This is one reason many pilots describe the 777 as exceptionally stable and easy to hand-fly.

---

What the pilot feels

When you pull and hold back pressure:

• The aircraft slows down.

• As long as you hold the pressure, the new speed is not yet established.

When you relax the pressure:

• The FBW system gradually trims the aircraft.

• The new speed becomes the trim reference speed.

The airplane now tends to maintain that speed.

This is very different from a conventional Boeing like the 737 where trim primarily relieves control forces but does not create the same speed-stability behavior.

---

During approach

The system continuously adjusts for:

• Flap extension

• Gear extension

• Thrust changes

• CG changes

• Fuel burn

The pilot rarely needs to think about trim.

The airplane simply remains close to the desired speed when properly configured.

---

What is missing in PMDG's 777

This is one of the areas frequently noted by real 777 pilots and experienced sim users.

Missing or buggy behavior

The PMDG 777 does not correctly reproduce the real airplane's:

1. Trim Reference Speed logic

2. Speed stability characteristics

3. Column-force-to-speed relationship

4. Dynamic FBW trimming laws

5. Pitch/speed coupling

In the real aircraft:

• Pull and release → a new trimmed speed is established.

• Push and release → a different trimmed speed is established.

• The aircraft then tends to return to that speed.

In PMDG:

• The speed-hold tendency is weaker.

• Pitch attitude tends to dominate rather than trim-reference speed.

• Changes in speed do not always produce the same natural restoring tendencies seen in the real aircraft.

Unfortunately, I don't think PMDG is capable or willing to fix these issues, including even the LNAV problem.

I found the information here informative and helpful. Cheers!

The biggest issue I have with the PMDG 777 is the trimming behavior. The aircraft does not appear to respond to trim inputs while I am holding pitch pressure on the joystick. I have to return the stick to neutral before the trim takes effect.

In the FF 777, I can trim the aircraft while still holding a pitch input, either nose up or nose down, and then gradually release pressure on the stick until the aircraft reaches the desired trimmed speed. This feels much more natural and realistic.

Edited 14 hours ago14 hr by Denco

On 6/12/2026 at 12:38 AM, LRBS said:

No, I believe you are mistaken. Numerous individuals here can attest that my expectations are entirely reasonable and are grounded in the standards established by this company's own previous products. Those earlier releases demonstrated a far higher level of accuracy, fidelity, and attention to detail than what is being discussed here.

No one is suggesting that a consumer flight simulator product should replicate a Level D simulator. That is a strawman argument. The expectation is simply that the product should meet the level of quality and system accuracy that the developer itself has successfully achieved in the past. When a company has already demonstrated that standard, it is neither unrealistic nor unreasonable for customers to expect it to be maintained.

There are people that appreciate real life feedback about the aircraft including me. It's amazing how many people will twist themselves into knots to stick up for PMDG who won't even fix the cabin lighting, add an option to select how far you wish to activate Pause at T/D or add a pushback option.