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Wilco/FeelThere 737 PIC !!!

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Let me say this about this particular a/c.It is the most over rated payware pkg I have purchased since me buying FSX.I have now shelved both of them and have asked Wilco for a refund for the 737 and they simply responded with a form letter that this is such a widely accepted pkg with numerous accolades from various reviewers.I have the PMDG 737/747/747F,LDS 767,DF727,F1 MD-80,F1 ATR,Aeroworx KA,and the Da Cheyenne payware and this pkg is not even in the same league.I have better freeware on my system than this 40.00 pkg.I am just blowing off steam here, but I was fooled with all the research I did where here my expectations were not met. I hope they will do the right thing and refund my purchase as Flight1 does without any problems. Here are my complaints with and w/o their SP2:LNAV and VNAV would make most passengers use their vomit bags ..side views are a joke they look like FS2002 3D views also used on the FT erj and crj that I also own.Outside the nose looks funny and some of the liveries look dated.No load configurator come on it is 2006/07The plane flys extremely heavy my X45 did not respond well at all I had to give large inputs for elevator and aeliron.I have a highend system and FPS were not good and the plane caused stutters when looking out the side views because the refresh rate taxed my vid card.Sound was very loud inside on all the systems which can be adjusted with the cfg to a point.Andy

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Hi Andy,I wouldn't go that far with my critics. But yes, I experienced the same problems to a certain extent. Especially the FPS thing is annoying me. But there are that many satisfied customers out there that I'm still searching for problems on my side.Regards, Thomas

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Got this recently myself after some good reviews and comments on this forum.Have to say I am very dissapointed. Poor FPS when switching views, LNAV and VNAV are horrible and a couple of CTD's as well. I will be sticking with my trusty PMDG NG, although I would have liked a good 'Classic' package.Live and learn.........Glenn

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wow !! I am glad I am not the only one out there .... I just did a flt with a PMDG 747F and it is such a joy to fly for a heavy.Andy

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It is a strange aircraft, I have had terrific flights and I have had flights that are a nightmare with all the problems listed above. I agree it is best to fly the PMDG NG's which are great. Maybe someday we will have a good classic to fly.Andrew

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In general Feelthere's stuff is not as good as any of the addons you mentioned in your hangar. I am not surprised you dislike it so much. Nevertheless, I still like their Legacy and ERJ a lot only because, while far from being excellent, they are the best offerings in the market for that class / type aircraft. Come on guys, we need excellent business jets!

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You're not the only one dispointed by this package and fooled by several reviews... I uninstalled it months ago. And I don't miss it. Defenitely not in the same league with Level-D, PMDGs and some others...

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You are right, it is very overrated. The systems are more detailed than pmdg's 737, but thats not a fair comparison because the pmdg is a very dated plane. The graphics are pretty bad inside and out especially the vc, and they got the boeing 737 shape completely wrong.

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I am so happy I am not the only frustrated one as well. There was just a topic about this plane on this forum a few days ago. Like in many reviews the general tendency was again to accept it's flaws and defend this plane with enthousiasm. That also fooled me into buying it. And fooled me again to try it the last few days. Same problems, same frustration. After all the tweaking and admitting it improved a lot I still cannot trust the FD, the FMC,VNAV, LNAV basically everything to do with automated flight. So the conclusion for me is like it would be with a real plane; if you cannot trust it you wont fly it. Saluti,Paolo

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I love the bird, it's a bit tricky to fly but that is what I love about it. One thing that bugged me was the speedbreak/spoliers. When you deploy them the planes goes into a 4000ft drop instantly. I learned that deploying them slowly, very slowly that you avoid this.I also notice that if you do say, a right turn in LNAV, the plane will turn slightly left first and almost always corrects it's self at the end of the turn (as if over turning, then correcting back).Took me a while to learn to autoland it too. The biggest problem was turning the ND to ILS mode.Framerates are good here, it does have a frame rate tuner. Keep in mind I have only used it in FS9 and not FSX (I won't go bashing FSX, it's pointless).I know it has it's quirks but it is still an excellent bird. IMO.

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>I know it has it's quirks but it is still an excellent bird.>IMO.What other birds do u own ???I am still after WILCO for a refund and if that does not go well than off to my credit card company to reverse the charges. I hope they FT/WILCO read this and understand that we are getting wiser to the fact what is good and what is crap out there ..Case in point FSXAndy

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I guess there's no need going into to much here since you've made up your mind it's crap. As far as framerates go you need to adjust the various displays in the configuration utility to what works best on your machine.I agree on one point and that's the documentation aspect. If there was more detailed docs provided with this plane half the problems mentioned here would be alleviated. Bottom line is I feel it's a great add-on with some recognized problems here and there. I fought hard to get certain things more refined as a beta tester but sadly it didn't happen. Some don't like the look of the VC which is understandable. But what has always stood out to me with this add-on is what's under the hood. You guys say it flies to heavily but who here has flown a real 737-300 to have such a strong opinion about this??? I remember Rob changing a perfectly good FDE for another well known FS bird because people who knew nothing about what they were talking about had such strong opinions. For the record we had actual pilots check off on this bird. What you see in this model is pretty close to the real deal. Lou of Dreamfleet fame once told me if we made you guys an aircraft totally realistic you guys couldn't handle it, you'd say it's unrealistic. A good example is a 777, most pilots will tell it's responsive and feels nothing like the beast it really is. You don't hear the flap hydraulics in many aircraft when you deploy them in real life. Put something like that on the market and people go crazy because there's no flap sound. That's why compromises have to be made to satisfy people who think they know what's going on but really don't. I will say Level-D was one of the few that didn't compromise even though so many complained of everything from the sounds to the eye position in the VC. Concerning the PMDG model over FeelThere's 737, a NG 737 is not going to handle the same way a classic 737 would. Totally different control methods as far as hydraulics and advanced wing design, etc. Rob Young built the FDE and for those touting other add-ons need to check into how much this guy has done in the projects your either justifying and/or already own over this one (I'll let you guys find out who this guy is on your own in the community). I'd believe Rob Young's flight models over half these other guys in the community. You can research this as well as to why I feel this way. Feelthere did a good job plain and simple. The avionics are implemented better in this 737 than in PMDG's older NG model. You are very correct in saying it's not fare to compare such an older model to this one but if you put this add-on next to DreamFleet's 727, I'd say both are good. PMDG's 737 is worse on framerates than the FeelThere model ever could be (with proper adjustment of course). Both have adjustment utilities but PMDG's doesn't seem to work. I fault the Feelthere manual for not spelling it out that there is an extensive configuration utility that helps tremendously in the framerates department.So all this being said I for one really like the FeelThere 737 more so than I do the PMDG model. This has allot to do with framerates for me. The VC could have been done a little better in my book but outside of that the avionics are very well done. Maybe it's because I like to fly the plane and not let the autopilot do everything for me. I haven't had the reported problems with the LNAV and rarely use VNAV. What ever route I have punched into the FMC the plane flies. I manually descend using the AP. On approach I let the AP capture the GS and localizer and manually fly the plane down to the runway or take over when I can see the runway in foggy weather. All this automated stuff I've never gotten into. Norhwest Airlines require it's pilots to manually fly the final approach. Just because the plane has all these features doesn't mean their used all the time in the real world. Don't get me wrong as if a feature is legitimately broken in FT's model it needs to get fixed. I'm just saying it's boring to let the AP do everything for the simple fact it can versus being a pilot and flying the darn thing sometimes. If you guys would post on FeelThere's forum instead of trying to deal with Wilco you may get better help. Wilco has sucked for years we all know that. FeelThere and the small community around this product has some great people to deal with and talk to. Give their forums a chance and see if you can't get any better results with this product as a whole. I really like this 737 and most of the community does as well. That has to say something about the value of the product overall...

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Les,I'm not going to drag myself into this any more than to say these issues HAVE been raised in the FeelThere forums AD NAUSEUM....Anytime the LNAV issue is raised(generally by a new user, as those that have been around long enough don't even bother asking anymore), the standard reply is a copy/paste of a link to some .cfg settings one could change, totally unsupported of course, with no recommendations on what values, etc., one should use. The reason there are no recommendations, of course, is this isn't the problem, and if it were that easy, really, why wouldn't FT just adjust the values themselves ?I don't necessarily have the best history with FT, but it's plain to see how much potential they have, to create truly great products, if they would only actually finish them. They took time to do so many things so very well, but seem perfectly happy to let a few lingering niggles hold the product back.

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Yup, add me to the list of users who were disappointed from the minute I flew one trip with it. Horrible framerates (overall performance), heavy unrealistic FDE's, and so on. I removed it probably a couple months after buying it, well after all the patches had been released. Waste of money, and the last FT product on my list unless something major changes.

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>>I flew one trip with it. Horrible framerates (overall performance), heavy unrealistic FDE's, and so on.<

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I like the plane. I've had MFS in one form or another since 1985 and this is a very easy aircraft to fly. I agree that the manual is very weak, but if you have had any of the other payware Boeing's that are offered in the market, the plane is very easy to adapt to because of the similairities in the software packages.The Dream Fleet 727 package is still by personal favorite followed by the Level-D 767, but Feelthere 737 still get a good amount of flying time.Tom

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many many real pilots have stated that multi-million dollar simulator is really nothing like the real metal.there are people that complain that Stellan Hilmerby's DC9-21/41 http://www.hilmerby.com/) doesn't fly like the real aircraft. the guy is a type rated DC9 pilot (http://www.hilmerby.com/background.html). i'm going to belive him on how systems work and aircraft performs.the same situation exists for the fanda dash8 300Q & 400Q (http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/fanda/).we simmers have assumptions on what a 737 v. 777 v. A380 v. cessna 172 v. etc. etc. most of this is from time spent planespotting and/or riding as a passenger. even if you have been lucky enough to jump seat, until you have REAL time behind the yoke of any single type our ideas on flight dynamics are all based on assumptions.until you are type rated for the 737 classics and have a logbook showing you have time behind the yoke we 'simmers' have no place evaluating a flight model as 'correct'.--

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For the record, I have no complaints about the FDE whatsoever.However, the VNAV and LNAV need serious tweaking. I can handfly it no problem but it's not an excuse for these items to work as poorly as they do. Either the system is modelled or it's not. If I so choose to turn on the autoflight system it should work without forcing my virtual passengers to reach for the barf bag. Even FLCH suffers the same fate and to my knowledge most airlines use this function even if they don't use VNAV.As for FPS, all I can say is that the PMDG 737 performs quite a bit better on my rig. The 737 PIC gives me major FPS drops when switching views and a couple of CTD's to boot when going to spot view. It all adds up to a package that I would rather not waste my limited simming time on. These days I find myself limiting my simming to these aircraft:LDS 767DF A36ATR-72 PMDG 737NG (not so much anymore)Glenn

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"As for FPS, all I can say is that the PMDG 737 performs quite a bit better on my rig. The 737 PIC gives me major FPS drops when switching views"I guess you read nothing I wrote above. For the last time find the configuration utility in your 'Start' 'Programs' Menu and adjust the gauge refresh rates. It sounds more like you've made up you mind for whatever reason without giving the product a fare shot. There's no way you can say the PMDG 737NG has better framerates than the FeelThere model. That's just flat out false and only possible if you haven't adjusted the gauges.

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>>What other birds do u own ???>>AndyAll the PMDG stuff, LVD 767, Coolsky MD80, Dreamfleet 727.

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>Lou of Dreamfleet fame once told me if we made you guys an>aircraft totally realistic you guys couldn't handle it, you'd>say it's unrealistic. A good example is a 777, most pilots>will tell it's responsive and feels nothing like the beast it>really is. You don't hear the flap hydraulics in many aircraft>when you deploy them in real life.Funny you say that Dillon. I just read Mike Rays excellent real life 747-400 checkride manual (his 737 super guppy is excellent with the FT 737 I might ad). And he mentions the 747 as having "the silky smooth feel of a race car" and "extremely responsive, literally dances (when it's light)"I also recall Lou saying the FT 737 was good.http://www.iemit.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC...erms=dreamfleet

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I'll tell you what, almost every pilot I've seen give an opinion on both the classic and NG 737 flight dynamics say the classics are more responsive, especially compared to the 800 and 900 series. Given the fact PMDG worked so hard to have their 737 pilots approve the overall feel of their NG package, I have to say the PMDG captures the best flight dynamic in MSFS for a 737. Take into account the 737 PIC feels like a bird without any hydraulics and therefore almost the complete opposite of responsive and crisp, I'd say the PIC is way off. I also realize MSFS FDEs are a subjective area to a lot of people in general, and some think a sluggish feel is more realistic than a light feel, but based on my experience and all my conversations, I'd say the sluggish feel is not realistic at all.

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FEELTHERE?? That's the right name. You will really feel your disappointment. I had smashed my 737-Pilot In Command.These people should be sued because of their misrepresentation of their product. They are a #### best for marketing strategy.Isagani

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I find this stuff a little bizzare - how/why folk could be having FR problems with the FT model is strange. On my system, i get FAR BETTER performance with the FT737 than with the PMDG. When first installed, they were about the same, but after just 2 mins with the config utiliity, it made a big difference.As for LNAV & VNAV problems, unless i'm blind, i just don't get them. I do have some nasty issues if using time compression, but then i do most other complex aircraft.The ONLY issue i have is the slight anomily re the shape of the aircraft. But hey..... i fly from INSIDE!

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