Price gauging is when you take a commodity like gasoline which people need to survive, and raise it based on no market reason but to take more money from the consumer because you can.

Price gouging is a pejorative term for a seller pricing much higher than is considered reasonable or fair.I consider $100 higher than reasonable or fair, as it seems do many others. Just varying opinions.

In my opinion the price for most quality add ins for fs has been ridiculously low for the value/time to produce, and possibly unfair to the developers.

That's your opinion, and it seems at least one commercial member agrees. I for one do not. I gladly pay what PMDG asks, because their prices, although perhaps perceived by some as high, are vary fair for what is given. If a developer wants to ask more it is up to them to decide whether or not the market will bear it and give the returns they want/need. Is it the hobbies (or users) fault if they don't sell enough then? Not hardly - simple market supply and demand. If they are putting too much time into for their return, then they need to re-think if they are a successful commercial developer in my opinion. Or perhaps they are a paid "passionate" developer that does not view it as strictly business, of which many fine payware developers seem to be. I find humorous the concept that the buying public is unfair to a (strictly) commercial developer. If they are in it to make a living (or strictly as a business at least) then they need to bring a product to market at price that will give enough sales as well as give them the returns they deem appropriate. That's up to the developer as a business entity. That may be Jean-Luc's view of his actions with the product, though I do perceive it that way a a member of the buying public.Compare what RXP is offering against other recent payware releases and it is still out of bounds (my opinion).In the spirit of a good argument / difference of opinion ( I hope ) :( Joe

In the spirit of a good argument / difference of opinion ( I hope ) :( Joe

Yep I can understand what you are saying but it's still a labor of love and when you calculate the many thousand hours involved no add-on price is justified.I dear to say that nobody would do it for the hour payment only because it's really ridiculous low...I know what it takes and the hours involved freeware (7 times) and payware...So my perspective is from both sides development and customer.

Price gouging is a pejorative term for a seller pricing much higher than is considered reasonable or fair.I consider $100 higher than reasonable or fair, as it seems do many others. Just varying opinions.That's your opinion, and it seems at least one commercial member agrees. I for one do not. I gladly pay what PMDG asks, because their prices, although perhaps perceived by some as high, are vary fair for what is given. If a developer wants to ask more it is up to them to decide whether or not the market will bear it and give the returns they want/need. Is it the hobbies (or users) fault if they don't sell enough then? Not hardly - simple market supply and demand. If they are putting too much time into for their return, then they need to re-think if they are a successful commercial developer in my opinion. Or perhaps they are a paid "passionate" developer that does not view it as strictly business, of which many fine payware developers seem to be. I find humorous the concept that the buying public is unfair to a (strictly) commercial developer. If they are in it to make a living (or strictly as a business at least) then they need to bring a product to market at price that will give enough sales as well as give them the returns they deem appropriate. That's up to the developer as a business entity. That may be Jean-Luc's view of his actions with the product, though I do perceive it that way a a member of the buying public.Compare what RXP is offering against other recent payware releases and it is still out of bounds (my opinion).In the spirit of a good argument / difference of opinion ( I hope ) :( Joe

Well here is my frame of reference:Cost of real Garmin 430/530 (without installation-adding quite a bit more for that)$8000/$12,000. Let's add the Taws to each unit-that is a $9000 extra option. Get two units and you can do the math.http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/list.as...p;search_text=2Compare to cost of RXP Garmin 430/530 $50 each and then add $100 for the ability to use taws and multiple units (if needed).Now let us contrast what someone has paid the above for a real unit/(s) will pay for a typical training software program after purchasing the above to attempt to learn how to use it:http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&a...ct_id=7256#descNotice: "A realistic built-in emulator is a key part of the program, allowing users to learn procedures in a linear, scenario-based fashion, with extensive animated sequences that match the actual GNS 530/430 screens."$144.95. No ability to use with a flight sim-just a multimedia predictable presentation running with the emulator. Now I can tell you from personal experience it is much more useful flying a flight simulator with the real unit operating. Which is the bargain here?! Which is more valuable to a pilot who wants to do the learning on the ground in efforts to save much bigger bucks.Now consider the G1000:$50,000 for a G1000.Here is a typical training program to learn its' use:http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&a...roduct_id=11493$234 for a media based trainer, not vista compatible, and only the basic trainer-another $200 for the advanced.Flight One Mustang-$55.Which is the bargain? I see no better bargain out there.You might want to check the real Aspen Avionics unit-compare it's costs and training programs (if they exist) to what you get with the flight one unit for flight sim.I think flight simmers just really sometimes have no idea how lucky they are. I can see why flight sim developers would have a variety of reasons to head for the "real" market where their efforts are well appreciated and justly compensated. I say again, I think flight simmers just really sometimes have no idea how lucky they are.I rest my case....

Why didn't you make it then Ed lol :(

I didn't make it because I don't own any legal rights to the Garmin trainer. The technique he's using isn't that complex. I have a great deal of experience in programming... so I do understand the actual complexity involved with what he did.It's an excellent product for those who seek fidelity with the Garmin unit. Considering it is a Garmin product producing all the work behind the scenes, nothing else could come close to it's accuracy.However, to state he put in many hours of development time making the entire GPS system... isn't accurate. Credit where credit is due... but only where it's due. :)EDIT: The $100 price that many disagree with doesn't purchase either GPS unit for FS. It modifies any existing units you've purchased to support cross-fill and TCAS. I say that based on what others have stated in this thread regarding that you must purchase the units independently. The individual units are at a lower cost (each) than the additional feature set which have zero value without the original units. The pricing is a bit puzzling to me as well.

The pricing is a bit puzzling to me as well.

I agree but my remark was more meant in general and I'm curious if you agree there?

I think an area people are getting hung up here is the pricing of the previous pro version and now the new pro version being almost four times as much. The Garmin trainer itself changed so there was no porting of prior techniques, the 430 and 530 individually had to be re-written to work with the updated Garmin trainer. When it came to making two work at the same time on the same computer... then getting them to operate independent to the other... and crossfill, this new stuff just didn't want to play in the same yard very well. I commend Jean Luc for getting the job done cause I didn't think he was gonna pull it off this time, but he did.

I think what you are saying is the point. If you don't need the upgrade don't get it! If you can't justify the $100 price tag don't get it! Why would this alienate anyone? I want a vacation house on the ocean, but there aren't any at a price I can't afford right now. I'd like the price to be lower, but it isn't. Doesn't make me mad at the owner for asking what they think it is worth?...Implications of "price gauging" and "greed" really rub me the wrong way. Price gauging is when you take a commodity like gasoline which people need to survive, and raise it based on no market reason but to take more money from the consumer because you can.This is not a product anyone needs to survive, and has been priced by the manufacterer at a price he deems necessarry to justify his efforts. I do know one thing-in the market that this is probably going for there will be no complaining-perhaps this also figures into the equation.Andy-I don't think your argument has any bearing to a manufacterer deciding to price a product at a price that makes sense for them.

Geof:I hope you won't take my comments as a personal attack as they are nothing but my opinions. I respect your opinions but have you ever took a step back and looked at things from a different point of view? That is a non-pilot view?First of all in numerous previous posts about someone complaining about what they felt was an over-priced product you have almost always posted in defense of the developer. I knew you were going to post in this thread. As a pilot and owner of an airplane your perspective is always these addons are much cheaper than the real thing or real training. Basically you feel (and have said here in this thread) that any price lower than the cost of the real item is acceptable. You make comparisons to the cost of actual training or actual devices. If an actual Garmin 530 costs $12000 would Flight Sim users be getting a bargain if a developer sold one for 1/10th of that at $1200? You make it seem so.Maybe you feel that it would be worth that but to a non pilot and someone who is just uses Flight Sim as a GAME and as a HOBBY $1200 would be too much. You must not forget that MSFS is not a real world training product. It is a game. Yes I know the difference between a game and a sim. I'm using the word game to keep things in perspective here. A real Garmin 530 is an actual product that exists in 3D in this world. A Garmin 530 in Flight Sim is a piece of programming that only exists when several other real world items are in place. In addition the item pertaining to this thread can only be used if you have Flight Sim AND if you have the Reality XP 530 or 430. It is an addon to an addon! I believe this is the main reason why most here are complaining about the price.I work for the railroad as a Locomotive Engineer. At one time I was assisting a well known Microsoft Train Simulator addon developer. This developer was/is basically a one man operation. In the past this developer made the decision to raise his addon prices way above the prices other developers were charging for similar products. Why did he raise his prices? Because of greed! He knew that "some users" (and the key word is "some") would pay his highly inflated price. His belief was just because you could sell a product for say $20 and sell a thousand units for a total of $20000 (and keep the price in a range for everyone) why not sell the same item for $60 and only sell 400 units for $24000. He knew less people would be able to afford it but he would only be catering to the users that would buy the item at any price! (In addition this developer was NOT paying more for materials, manpower, etc.) You think that's good business? I say it's greed and nothing else! Needless to say I have nothing to do with that developer now.My point is your posts convey that addon developers should charge more and in the process some developers agree because they feel users like you are willing to pay more and the developers will always feel they deserve more! Meanwhile us regular non-pilot-happy to be simming/gaming at home users feel the pinch because the developers raise prices and cater to the above average. While it rubs you the wrong way when users complain about greed or price gouging it rubs me the wrong way that they are running the hobby into the ground with higher prices that less and less can afford! Day by day more and more hobbies are becoming for the above average Joe only.Geof you are defending Reality XP's decisions for the $100 price. Practically everyone in this thread thinks it is too high. So instead of giving us analogies, do you really feel that the Reality XP Unlimited addon which is simply an enhancement to their Garmin 530 and/or 430 is worth $100? Not is it worth $100 to "you" but is it a fair price for the community as a whole? I mean it is a luxury to a luxury!If you do think so then that is your right but it is also OK for others to say otherwise and complain about what they feel is an unusual high price. We are not wrong for stating what we feel is a high price so respect both sides.Todd

There are many interesting comments in this thread, and this perfectly reflects how expectations differ.First, let me address this straight: Ed, the poster in this thread, has not been working with Reality XP, nor on the GNS WAAS product, and despite the core logic of the GNS WAAS is based on Garmin's own Trainer under license, Ed has no idea how much work is involved to turn a standalone Trainer windows program into a Reality XP GNS WAAS Simulation product. I can assure you it is way more than what it sounds like, and I'd dare say that if this was so easy, there would be more competing products on the market using the same technologies.Now, I guess you need to understand product positioning. First of all, GNS WAAS Unlimited is not a professional product. Our professional licenses for the GNS WAAS 430/530 are actually sold more than 1/10th of a real Garmin Unit, and I can assure you integrators we are working with are reaching new customers and higher customer satisfaction in offering our GNS WAAS Simulation, for professional training, at a professional license price.GNS WAAS Unlimited is a pro-summer product. You can now get Cross Fill which was already available months before for our professional customers, in addition to TCAD (which is an option for the professional license). The license for this products is for personal use, not professional training, and permits self-paced training in the comfort of the home, not sanctioned nor monitored nor executed under the supervision of a school or training center. You get all these features at a fraction of the Professional License price, since the use is personal only.Some say the "addon" to the addon is more expansive than the addon. Well, there are many cases like this. One I've been looking at lately (for my own use), is Sony Vegas Movie Studio. There is the consumer version for $54, the more advanced version for $114.95 (platinum) and there is the pro-summer version for $599.95 (and like someone else said in a thread, why not $600?).Another example: camcorders. You can get featured-enough camcorders, point and shoot, for maybe $300. Then you can get Professional Camcorders easily around $10.000 or $20.000. And then, you have pro-summer camcorders, with many features of the pro yet distributed and manufactured with consumer grade components, for prices around $1300. Last year, I needed an HD camcorder for some of the Reality XP projects, and I've choosen a pro-summer camcorder, thinking I've paid a correct price (even if 4 times as much as a lower end video capturing capable device), given the extra "pro like" feature set that make a real difference for my needs, without the higher premium of a professional camcorder used for broadcast.GNS WAAS Unlimited is a pro-summer product for personal training needs. Alternatives on the market exist:* Elite Simulation + Hardware (mandatory for the GNS) retailing for $199+$549=$748 (although you only get 1 GNS in this configuration)* GNS Courses like this one: http://www.gleim.com/aviation/products.php?cat=G530#Online for $99* Sporty's GNS Training pack: http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&a...roduct_ID=11303 retailing for $395.* Jeppesen Advanced Garmin GNS 430/530 Software http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&a...9743&DID=19 retailing for $125.95Like it is written on our product page, unlike higher priced Garmin GNS CBT cd-roms, GNS Training Books and fuel burning logged time flying, GNS WAAS Unlimited brings higher training value for our customers, for a fraction of the price, leveraging our RealTime Training

Some say the "addon" to the addon is more expansive than the addon. Well, there are many cases like this. One I've been looking at lately (for my own use), is Sony Vegas Movie Studio. There is the consumer version for $54, the more advanced version for $114.95 (platinum) and there is the pro-summer version for $599.95 (and like someone else said in a thread, why not $600?).Another example: camcorders. You can get featured-enough camcorders, point and shoot, for maybe $300. Then you can get Professional Camcorders easily around $10.000 or $20.000. And then, you have pro-summer camcorders, with many features of the pro yet distributed and manufactured with consumer grade components, for prices around $1300. Last year, I needed an HD camcorder for some of the Reality XP projects, and I've choosen a pro-summer camcorder, thinking I've paid a correct price (even if 4 times as much as a lower end video capturing capable device), given the extra "pro like" feature set that make a real difference for my needs, without the higher premium of a professional camcorder used for broadcast.

Well your analogies are not addons to addons. They are different products with different features for different purposes. With that said...

GNS WAAS Unlimited is a pro-summer product for personal training needs. Alternatives on the market exist:

Thank you for stating that this is a product for a different range of Flight Sim users with different purposes.Todd

Well your analogies are not addons to addons. They are different products with different features for different purposes. With that said...Thank you for stating that this is a product for a different range of Flight Sim users with different purposes.Todd

This was a mere example to illustrate a base consumer product costing A (GNS WAAS - Vegas Consumer) and the pro-summer product costing much more (GNS WAAS Unlimited + GNS WAAS = 3xA - Vegas Pro = 10xA). I'm sorry if the analogy was not clear enough for all readers.As for "stating", I'm hoping you have at least read the product page to make sure you have understood what the product is about: http://reality-xp.com/flightsim/gns-unlimited/index.htmlI'm certain it is not for a different range of Flight Sim users. I'm sure it is for the Flight Sim users, maybe not all of them, depending on how and why a Flight Sim user is simming.

"You must not forget that MSFS is not a real world training product. It is a game."Just wanted to note that FSX is being used for real-world training in growing numbers. NFFTC in Jacksonville is using it with there new RedBird simulator, as is a facility I visited in Homestead, Daytona and Tampa last week. Not sure what's loggable and what's not, but it certainly has become quite the training aid for many centers.

There are many interesting comments in this thread, and this perfectly reflects how expectations differ.First, let me address this straight: Ed, the poster in this thread, has not been working with Reality XP, nor on the GNS WAAS product, and despite the core logic of the GNS WAAS is based on Garmin's own Trainer under license, Ed has no idea how much work is involved to turn a standalone Trainer windows program into a Reality XP GNS WAAS Simulation product. I can assure you it is way more than what it sounds like, and I'd dare say that if this was so easy, there would be more competing products on the market using the same technologies.

I know more than you give me credit for. :(However, that's not the topic of discussion. I made a statement about a misleading statement from another person. That's all.

I know more than you give me credit for. :(However, that's not the topic of discussion. I made a statement about a misleading statement from another person. That's all.

Ed, just to be clear with this, please read carefully what I've written: that you may have enough knowledge to make a similar product is not what I'm saying. I'm saying you have no idea how much work is involved to turn a standalone Trainer windows program into a Reality XP GNS WAAS Simulation product, thus you cannot conclude it only took little time to do, nor you cannot conclude it took many years either (in the case of the GNS, from v1 16bits in the Meridian to latest GNS WAAS Unlimited, it is more than a 5 man years project development, not counting after sale support).

I might find the situation a little more palatable had the premise of a target audience and unbelievable price point been in the original thread at RXP disclosing the product ("From the lab: what's next (with pictures)") No where in there is any mention of this rationale.The line "I'm hoping you'd enjoy this extension pack once released!" maybe should have been quoted as expect this to be a highly priced premium product targeted to a select few of you.Have read that posting, the received the sticker shock at the release has pretty much made me lose any faith in RXP, no matter the explanations or excuses. Disappointed no matter.Joe

Ed, just to be clear with this, please read carefully what I've written: that you may have enough knowledge to make a similar product is not what I'm saying. I'm saying you have no idea how much work is involved to turn a standalone Trainer windows program into a Reality XP GNS WAAS Simulation product,

Actually.... :( I do know what it takes to do a total and complete standalone product that does not rely on any trainer at all. I also was there with you in the beginning when the RXP Garmin series was originally conceived and it was in the Meridian product (ours) and at that time nobody even knew who RXP was. Ed is a pretty smart guy and I certainly would not discredit his opinion. I will give you this however... It takes much more than it ever did before to create quality add-ons and we are all responsible for possibly spoiling the audience with high levels of functionality at extremely low prices. Guys, nobody over here is getting rich on this stuff and it is almost the opposite. You know what I drive? a 1993 Dodge Caravan with lots of signature rust. Value is in the eye of the beholder gentleman and I can assure you that many of us know that there is an audience that will gladly pay what the product is worth. Bottom line? It may not be worth it to you and that is quite fair.Jim