I'm starting to come to grips that the reality of the matter is the Flight Sim hobby is changing. It's becoming a bit expensive. (Well at least it is to me but obviously not to some others)

It is, which is funny because the (US) economy is poor.

(In addition this developer was NOT paying more for materials, manpower, etc.) You think that's good business? I say it's greed and nothing else! Needless to say I have nothing to do with that developer now.

Todd, do you think that the cost of living remained constant for this developer, or did he suffer from the same increases everyone else on the planet has experienced?While I'll grant you that there are no "material costs" involved in sim modeling, there are real costs involved to the modeler. Prices sometimes increase because the costs of simply being alive have increased... :(

"I see why I normally do not participate in these types of posts because eventually it starts to go off topic and members start to imply things that have never been said."I agree-it always seems to happen."I'll get over the initial sticker shock and move on. Actually I already have. But I mean I'm not allowed to talk about it and share my opinions with others? I guess I should have (and others who also posted here and on other forums about the price) kept my mouth closed (actually my fingers tied) and just shook my head and moved on without saying anything."Todd-you are being allowed to talk about it-so has everyone in this thread . There are lots of things in the flight sim world too expensive for me too for a variety of reasons. I'd like a more professional hardware setup but can't justify it even though I have been eyeing the equipment for years. I've never bought the complex airliners (well I did buy one )-not because I thought the price although high was unfair, but because I just don't have any interest in that area and I know it would be a waste of my money.To be honest, when I saw the pr I was also puzzled about the price. I made some conjecture in the early posts above that perhaps this add in was aimed more towards the "professional" side (perhaps I should have said real world training side).In any case-Jean Luc has made a post explaining his rational-and to me at least we can understand his thinking. The fundamental choice of whether it is "worth it" still remains an individual choice and that has not changed. I don't think there is any right or wrong here.

Todd, do you think that the cost of living remained constant for this developer, or did he suffer from the same increases everyone else on the planet has experienced?While I'll grant you that there are no "material costs" involved in sim modeling, there are real costs involved to the modeler. Prices sometimes increase because the costs of simply being alive have increased... :(

Bill you're way off on this one! Re-read my post. I was a contracted team member with this guy and I knew him and his reasoning. And this is something that happened back in 2002. His approach was not justifiable. It was simple greed. Now back on topic if that is the case with you and other developers who are trying to make a living making addons, then so be it. You're entitled to make a buck! Again I have no arguments there. My point was as I said, initial sticker shock and the subsequent posting about it.

"I see why I normally do not participate in these types of posts because eventually it starts to go off topic and members start to imply things that have never been said."I agree-it always seems to happen."I'll get over the initial sticker shock and move on. Actually I already have. But I mean I'm not allowed to talk about it and share my opinions with others? I guess I should have (and others who also posted here and on other forums about the price) kept my mouth closed (actually my fingers tied) and just shook my head and moved on without saying anything."Todd-you are being allowed to talk about it-so has everyone in this thread .There are lots of things in the flight sim world too expensive for me too for a variety of reasons. I'd like a more professional hardware setup but can't justify it even though I have been eyeing the equipment for years. I've never bought the complex airliners (well I did buy one )-not because I thought the price although high was unfair, but because I just don't have any interest in that area and I know it would be a waste of my money.To be honest, when I saw the pr I was also puzzled about the price. I made some conjecture in the early posts above that perhaps this add in was aimed more towards the "professional" side (perhaps I should have said real world training side).In any case-Jean Luc has made a post explaining his rational-and to me at least we can understand his thinking. The fundamental choice of whether it is "worth it" still remains an individual choice and that has not changed. I don't think there is any right or wrong here.

Geof thanks and you are correct with your statements. Regarding being allowed to give an opinion, what I really was trying to say is this and hopefully I won't get shot out of the sky with this opinion. BTW my opinion is not in any way directed at you Geof or any other individual member here.Sometimes a poster will comment on a addon being too high in his or her opinion. Along will come a select few who will say basically "be quiet because I would be willing to pay double that amount for said addon." You think the developers are listening when someone says that? You bet! So what bothers me is sometimes a select few are changing things for everyone!Opinion: The Flight Sim community spirit is dying. It's turned into a hobby that is controlled by the few who only think about what is best for them or only what they can personally afford. Are times changing? Yes. Are prices rising? Yes. That is to be expected to a degree. But still there are a few who are changing the future of the hobby because of their selfishness and arrogance.Sounds like the way of the world doesn't it?Todd

Sometimes a poster will comment on a addon being too high in his or her opinion. Along will come a select few who will say basically "be quiet because I would be willing to pay double that amount for said addon." You think the developers are listening when someone says that? You bet! So what bothers me is sometimes a select few are changing things for everyone!Opinion: The Flight Sim community spirit is dying. It's turned into a hobby that is controlled by the few who only think about what is best for them or only what they can personally afford. Are times changing? Yes. Are prices rising? Yes. That is to be expected to a degree. But still there are a few who are changing the future of the hobby because of their selfishness and arrogance.Sounds like the way of the world doesn't it?Todd

So you would expect to have it all for free or almost? We did this and over millions of downloads (and a truckload of awards) even forfree (freeware) there where still a few people complaining amazing isn't it.Thousands and thousands hours for free and still complaining is that the correct community spirit?I have been on both sides and still am and I can't effort a home cockpit too but would love to have one (don't tell my wife lol) (so open to donations lol)My point is that I can understand where someone is coming from when they develop for FS.I don't think the very few will dictate the price but the total sales will do or else you will see discounts.But I never going to argue and to call it greed to know all in and outs over someones hard work.Would I love to have the lowest or reasonable price of course but if someone decides otherwise it's his right and mine to buy it or not!You can't expect today with all the demands for the most realistic software to get something almost for free besides some idiots like myself who give it to the community.So don't shoot me too because I just have another opinion experience as you do!

Opinion: The Flight Sim community spirit is dying. It's turned into a hobby that is controlled by the few who only think about what is best for them or only what they can personally afford. Are times changing? Yes. Are prices rising? Yes. That is to be expected to a degree. But still there are a few who are changing the future of the hobby because of their selfishness and arrogance.

In the old days, community spirit was high because of simplicity. These day's, the bar has been risen to levels, that take too much and time and commitment for a lot of individuals. Rarely will you see a "for the love of the hobby" addon that competes with one that now requires months or years to produce; let alone the years of experience required to build the product in the first place. You can see this in the X-Plane forums; as much of it is still simple and years behind what's been achieved for MSFS. Many payware X-Planes go for $10 - $15; but don't have near the level of virtual cockpits or systems that so many for MSFS have.L.Adamson

I think what you are saying is the point. If you don't need the upgrade don't get it! If you can't justify the $100 price tag don't get it! Spot on and I won't. The flight sim forums are unique places to visit for excellent "anti-sale" pitches.My wished for vacation house on the ocean is also ridiculously priced for my frame of reference-but it must not be for others..Or perhaps people look for value, not necessarily wanting to blow their wad (of cash) just because they have something in their pockets? Also, we skipped right to the vacation home analogy? I saw the "cost of real world avaiation" analogy upthread, but we haven't even worked through an automobile analogy yet.Gentleman, it has finally gotten to a point where entertainment users expect real world equivalents and that is simply not a sustainable venue for what the entertainment audience will pay and what we have to do to make it happen. Then please move into the professional trainer business already! I'm sure you'll compete very well with the big boys, like probably Garmin (and the like) at some point. I appreciate your work for the "entertainment users" and you're a talented developer, but I'll get over it! Somebody will eventually replace the line of business you abandoned. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time it will not be different.

Just a small clarification. Maybe I shouldn't have said "community spirit" and simply said "the Flight Sim community is dying."I did not mean to imply that addons should be free. It's funny how people try to read between the lines and imply something never said or meant! I meant community spirit as in the definition of community:1. A unified body of individuals.2. A group linked by a common policy.3. A body of persons of common and especially professional interests scattered through a larger society.

In the old days, community spirit was high because of simplicity. These day's, the bar has been risen to levels, that take too much and time and commitment for a lot of individuals. Rarely will you see a "for the love of the hobby" addon that competes with one that now requires months or years to produce; let alone the years of experience required to build the product in the first place. You can see this in the X-Plane forums; as much of it is still simple and years behind what's been achieved for MSFS. Many payware X-Planes go for $10 - $15; but don't have near the level of virtual cockpits or systems that so many for MSFS have.

L.Adamson your point is well taken and true for the Flight Sim community which was exactly my point. The community has grown so large it is no longer a niche market and many, many people (developers) have decided to make a buck off of it. Is that wrong? NO! I have no problem with someone using their talent to create a product and then selling it at a price they feel is fair. I've NEVER said a product should be free or even cheap.My problem is the drastic increases in some developers product pricing is turning the hobby into a hobby for the elite only. Maybe this is the transition for Flight Sim addons and I'm just not ready for it.Todd

My problem is the drastic increases in some developers product pricing is turning the hobby into a hobby for the elite only. Maybe this is the transition for Flight Sim addons and I'm just not ready for it.

I just have a two place kit plane..................but wouldn't mind a Cessna Citation X. However, I'm just not elite enough. See; the hobby is more real, than you thought! L.Adamson

Then please move into the professional trainer business already! I'm sure you'll compete very well with the big boys, like probably Garmin (and the like) at some point. I appreciate your work for the "entertainment users" and you're a talented developer, but I'll get over it! Somebody will eventually replace the line of business you abandoned. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time it will not be different.

This product is already a cross between entertainment and professional. There are numerous products that end up the same. The real advantage here; is that you don't have to pay big boy professional pricing. Lucky us! L.Adamson

Then please move into the professional trainer business already! I'm sure you'll compete very well with the big boys, like probably Garmin (and the like) at some point. I appreciate your work for the "entertainment users" and you're a talented developer, but I'll get over it! Somebody will eventually replace the line of business you abandoned. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time it will not be different.

We did a long time ago: www.flight1tech.comI think you may have missed the point.... We did not abandon anything. But certain products are aimed for other audiences and price points.Jim

My problem is the drastic increases in some developers product pricing is turning the hobby into a hobby for the elite only. Maybe this is the transition for Flight Sim addons and I'm just not ready for it.Todd

Or the alternative make it yourself ;-)

Or the alternative make it yourself ;-)

Gas is to expensive to take a long road vacation, so are suggesting I should make it myself ?

Gas is to expensive to take a long road vacation, so are suggesting I should make it myself ?

It's up to you....A --- You don't take the long road tripB --- You do with out other things, to make the road tripC --- You spend about 15 years like the creater of Reality XP has to master the craft; but instead, you'll learn how to make bio-diesel and how to adapt your vehicle to run on it. Simple!L.Adamson

Interesting read. The blurring of lines between FS as "Training Tool" VS Real World "Training Software" seems to be the cause of at least some confusion in the FS market place.FS developers have created a large number of realistic features but cannot bridge the gap between FS as "Training Tool" and Real World "Training Software" without overcoming the legal and liability hurdles.To be clear, FS cannot legally be used as Real World "Training Software" hence the MS decision to purpose build ESP.Those FS Developers who are also building Real World "Training Software" are or will be required to meet all legal and liabilty standards for the Real World Training Market and of course may charge whatever the Real World Training Market will bear. :( Flight Simulation enthusiasts have shown time and again that they wish to have the best of the Real World "Feature Set" at rock bottom FS Pricepoints.Without apology, let me say that such a scenario is unrealistic and unworkable.Finally, it has been my privilege over the years to discuss in depth the possibilities of implimenting realistic features with quite a few extremely skilled programmers who to a man agree that the RXP Units provide no more than an FS Interface to Garmins own Trainer System. An easy way to understand this is to remove the Garmin Trainer from ones system and watch what happens to the RXP Units.If RXP wishes to sell to the two markets already discussed then it's reasonable for FS Enthusiasts to expect lower pricepoints than their Real World Counterparts.If RXP chooses the path of marketing hyperbole to "dazzle" the FS Enthusiast with his brilliance and they pay higher pricepoints for RXP mixing and matching "feature sets" then they themselves must relearn the concept of caveat emptor, that is to say let the buyer beware. :(

C --- You spend about 15 years like the creater of Reality XP has to master the craft; but instead, you'll learn how to make bio-dieseland how to adapt your vehicle to run on it. Simple!L.Adamson

I get it, these payware devs are gods, and joe public buying their products should worship the ground they walk on and not ever question anything they do.................Thanks for clearing that up.I suppose if PMDG started charging $1000 for a plane, you and Geofa will be here to tell us how we are really getting our moneys worth, and if we don't like we should stop complaing and build the stuff on our own.The amount of brown nosing in this thread is off the charts.