If Ariane are trying to hide (which I doubt) they are not trying very hardJust put this into google04363467 ARIANE DESIGN FLIGHT SIMULATION LTDA little more work will reveal the names and addresses of the two directors, neither of which is P.Tishmaa small amount of money will even buy you a copy of the accounts.Seems fairly transparent to me

Not necessarily as transparent as you may think.The address listed is more-than-likely the registered address (normally the Company's auditors) rather than the actual trading address, and the names of two directors does NOT imply in any way that Peter Tishma is not associated with Ariane....Toni.

That reply doesn't address the question why shouldn't Ariane comply with the Distance Selling Regulations? They are not optional but UK law.

Nice address pun, I like that. Anyway, quite apart from the notion that those regulations apparently to a large degree actually are optional from what I can gather, in that they don't encompass all businesses, nor UK law if the Department of Trade and Industry is to be believed. Nor, for that matter, that anyone with the exception of Tim Capps (as far as I'm aware) is in a really solid position to be discussing the finer points of laws anyway, since he the only one here who actually is a lawyer, that reply doesn't address the question chiefly because it was not the question I was addressing (see my distinct lack of legal qualifications). Rather I was addressing the notion of why is it that some people feel compelled to get irate about something which does not really affect them, which is why that was the relevant bit I quoted.As I said, I've bought a couple of Ariane products, and we have yet to see me wailing and thrashing around complaining about how I have been mistreated or hard done to by that action. If they had treated me like crap and waltzed off with 100 quid of my hard earned cash, trust me, I would not be saying nice things about them. On the other hand, if it does affect you, I would suggest you then get in touch with the Department of Trade and Industry and/or The Office of Fair Trading and report the misdemeanor (if indeed there is one).I'm not here to particularly defend Ariane, nor even legally/intellectually qualified to do so. But I do question why the above should be so. I've already noted that if anyone does not agree to a EULA then it is their choice to be entirely unconstrained by it, by the simple expedient of not buying the product it pertains to. And if anyone has made that choice, then for what reason are they up in arms about the matter?Now there's a question to address.Al

OK! Why is Ariane more deserving of this particually hot place in Hades vs. anyone else? Simmarket charges a $5US fee to redownload a product that you've already purchased, why is that different than Ariane charging for a new key? At least it appears that Ariane doesn't always charge a fee. Need to reinstall 10 of your products you downloaded from Simmarket and lost your backup...prepare to be shafted for $50 no questions asked.How about Captain sim? Their business practices, support policy and product lines are ABSOLUTELY no worse than anything that Ariane has done, AND the unfinished totally broken Block B B757 even won a GOLD STAR AWARD!!!! The CSB757 is as deserving of a Gold Star as I am of being crowned the Queen of England! Then there was PSS (RIP) who treated their customers pretty poorly and released curiously substandard products but people STILL lined up around the block to buy them...then they went out of business and now you can't register or reinstall the products that you purchased from them due to their anti-piracy server that went away when they did, a parting slap in the face to their customers. And what about Peter Tishma? Well, we can continue to beat that dead horse (has been dead for a decade now), but you know, if Russia and the USA can put the cold war behind them and move on, maybe so can we? Heck, we're not even holding 1932 thru 1945 against Germany any more and even Cuba and the USA are beginning to speak to each other. After all, Peter Tishma tried to screw the community once...companies like Captain Sim stick it to you every time they release a product and many will defend the right to be screwed by CaptainSim to the death.So how about Wilco Publishing then? Anyone been over to their support forums lately? Oh wait, they don't have one. Obviously, this is because they have their address and phone numbers prominently posted so we can contact them directly. Actually...no, they do not. But they DO have a fax number, so if you can speak the T.38 Group3 fax protocol at 33.3kbps, then I am sure that you can probably ask the fax machine for support. Been over to Feelthere lately? No forum, no address, no support. They point you over to Wilco Publishing for support and the irony of this relationship should not be lost on you (if it is then read the paragraph above again).Without a doubt, Ariane is not unique as a vendor with less than optimal business structure. BUT, what about their products, surely they deserve to be judged on their products too? The truth is that Ariane products are not bad at all! Absolutely better than anything PSS had released, most certainly as good as anything from CaptainSim or Wilco / Feelthere, but most certainly not close to PMDG or LDS levels (and to be honest, the LDS 767 is outdated by today's standards...and LDS has only released ONE PRODUCT in the last 10 years!). Oh and speaking of PMDG, did anyone miss when they started charging for the products in POUNDS / EUROS? Pretty unusual for a company based in the United States Commonwealth of Virginia. Last time I checked, the currency of the United States was the US Dollar. Surely, this is much worse of a business practice than anything Ariane has done...the outrage to that was raised and everyone moved on. What would have happened if Ariane started charging in Gold Bullion only?Of course, who could forget when Ariane's B737 cost $99US! We all thought they were absoutely insane and fit to be laughed off the planet. Now, go over to www.precisionmanuals.com and see the cost of development that can add up to OVER $120US! Ariane may be crazy, but only as crazy as a fox!To be sure, MY biggest problem with Ariane is their website...it is FAR easier to solve a Chinese Finger Trap Puzzle than it is to figure out their product descriptions and policies. They would do well to fire their copywriter and website designer.The bottom line: when we put down our pitchforks and torches and disband the lynch mob we find that Ariane is no better, or worse, than many other major FS developers. Yes, I wish that everyone would live up to the standards of Flight1, Eaglesoft, JustFlight, Aerosoft, and others who lead the way in terms of integrity, customer service, support, product quality and convenience..but such is life. But seriously, this fixation with Peter Tishma and Ariane as if they are sitting in some cave in Afganistan plotting their next scheme to destroy the FS community is getting kinda old.

Al

When someone shows up dead in Ariane's basement, I would feel competent to make some Rumpolesque comments about bloodstains, but even a lawyer is not likely to offer a serious opinion on international trade unless that happens to be his specialty. Besides, isn't all that just marching orders from the EU overlords in Brussels telling free Englishmen how to run their country? Has the U.K. conformed with those orders, and if so, I would imagine that would be the relevant cite.I am gratified that Captain Sim isn't being ignored in general moral outrage, however. We have to do something about these toy airplane makers that offer GE engines with PW upper EICAS configs (and vice versa, though, oddly, no one seems to get exercised about that). For God's sake, think of the children!A good pile on is soooo much more fun with a crackling aura of moral outrage.As far as what Ariane would actually do with a routine reinstall, a close reading of the "evidence" on this thread is not all that discouraging actually. The rest is fodder for the next Ariane thread in six months when people can say "I know what I read on this forum, and all I have to say that anyone (like Al and Tim) who are STUPID enough to buy from KNOWN CRIMINALS deserve what they get, except I also want to protect these poor mental defectives from being taken advantage of by urging a BOYCOTT of Ariane so they will stop taking advantage of these suckers (especially Tim, because apparently he also likes Captain Sim... he should probably be institutionalized for his own good).As far as Ariane's website, I don't think anyone has had more laughs at its expense than me. But now I wonder if it is not a sort of send-up of airline marketing, too, putting potential customers in the position of real fleet buyers. A joke carried too far, without question.

OK! Why is Ariane more deserving of this particually hot place in Hades vs. anyone else? Simmarket charges a $5US fee to redownload a product that you've already purchased, why is that different than Ariane charging for a new key? At least it appears that Ariane doesn't always charge a fee. Need to reinstall 10 of your products you downloaded from Simmarket and lost your backup...prepare to be shafted for $50 no questions asked.

Simmarket no longer charges fees to re-download products... they discontinued that practice early last year.If you have a Simmarket account, your products are always available for re-download at NO cost...

Nice address pun, I like that. Anyway, quite apart from the notion that those regulations apparently to a large degree actually are optional from what I can gather

Indeed there are exceptions to the Distance Selling Regulations. However none of the exceptions cover provision of software.These Regulations give consumers a an unconditional right to cancel and to obtain a refund. However the fact that software is explicitly excluded from this right (see my earlier post) demonstrates that the other aspects of the Regulations do apply.As for the Regulations being optional as you maintain Regulation 7 shows they aren't:Information required prior to the conclusion of the contract 7. - (1) Subject to paragraph (4), in good time prior to the conclusion of the contract the supplier shall - (a) provide to the consumer the following information - (i) the identity of the supplier and, where the contract requires payment in advance, the supplier's address;...What's optional about that?I agree that there are many other companies have inacceptable practices and policies but this thread began about Ariane.

Al

Well as I know all about ARIANE history and where they are based in th UK. PM if you want their REAL ADDRESS AND BUSINESS DETAILS.Cheers.

But seriously, this fixation with Peter Tishma and Ariane as if they are sitting in some cave in Afganistan plotting their next scheme to destroy the FS community is getting kinda old.

Seems to work in a strange, negative fashion too. Apparently, it is not possible to voice criticism against Ariane without having the fans accuse you of being part of a lynch mob, suggesting that you are probably downloading Ariane software from a torrent site, and generally doing their best to ridicule the critics.I would have thought that sharing experiences re. product activation was a legitimate discussion topic on Avsim. Seems some folks think otherwise.TomPS: The Feelthere support forum is located here: http://forum.iemit.com/

Al

Blimey mate...............you seem to be going out of your way to either isolate or undermine these fair comments made against Ariane............why is that?

I'm not ridiculing anything other than people who get irate about things which don't affect them, that and the people who torrent things, and if anyone doesn't think that such people deserve ridicule, then I'm afraid I disagree.Discussing activation issues most certainly is a legitimate topic on AVSIM, but doing it from a perspective of actually knowing about it rather than simply piling into a tired argument is what makes it legitimate, and not going off onto tangents about whether this or that law has been broken with little way of discovering what is what, being very selective in what is said, and generally serving no purpose other than to stir up yet another thread where people can have a pop at a company they've had no dealings with.You yourself Tom posted earlier in this thread that you had not bought anything from Ariane, nor would you do so until they changed their policy. That's your decision, I went a different way, but I respect your choice as an equally valid one to make, and posted that it would be a wise choice for anyone who did not like Ariane's EULA. But for those who make the choice not to buy, how can they discuss and criticise activation issues, when they can't possibly have had any? That is the point.Anyone who is not downloading torrents should have no uneasy feelings that such a joke is aimed at them if they are not doing so, and it is not a blanket accusation of anyone and everyone any more than the bit about Ariane only ever having sold three copies is a fact.But what is a fact, is that the Ariane FS9 737s have been widely torrented, and it is not the man in the moon who is downloading those torrented versions, it is flight simmers, and as the AVSIM tagline says, AVSIM is the place where flight sim enthusiasts gather. It's not a pleasant thought, but it's a stretch to imagine that there is absolutely nobody viewing this thread who uses torrented stuff (with that probably being lurkers who are not commenting, but maybe not), particularly since the title of the thread mentions product activation, which is something I don't doubt a person who torrents things would look at.Of course a torrent is nothing to do with a legitimate activation issue, so there is no need to feel that I'm leveling that accusation at people who may have activation issues, as clearly I'm not when it is a different issue altogether. That joke was merely a wry observation on why there could be large numbers of people experienced enough to comment on the Ariane product when they have not bought it, since I find it hard to understand why people could feel the need to be up in arms about something they don't possess. Needless to say, if the cap does not fit, then don't imagine I think you are wearing it.But if people who are torrenting stuff get upset about that joke, then good, I sincerely hope they do. Twice. I'm certainly not going to apologise if I upset people who do indulge in that sort of thing, because it's those people who force companies to indulge in ever-more convoluted activation processes in the first place, and I rate them at about the same level as the people who hacked AVSIM. Which rather neatly brings us back to the discussion of activation issues, and as I said, that is fine with me for anyone who actually has any.And to answer another point raised earlier in the proceedings, we might like to note that if we go to Simmarket.com and look at the info page for FSUIPC version 4 for FSX, we will see that it is sold with a specific note that says no refunds can be offered. Earlier the point was made that doing this is breaking a law. Now I don't think it is, for reasons I stated earlier, but if we were to imagine it was breaking a law, then that would mean that the developer of it, who as I'm sure we all know is one of the nicest and most highly-respected people ever in the flight sim world (and a deserving winner of a plethora of awards given that we all benefit from the work), is guilty of the same thing which people on this thread are using as ammunition to fire at Ariane.But do we see people going after that subject with the same ire that results in a five page long thread on the forums. No we don't. And why is that so? Well I'm forced to conclude that whenever an Ariane thread comes up, as with a few other favorites for this treatment, it becomes open season for all the people who like nothing better than to stir up trouble on what they see as an easy target. Try doing that with FSUIPC and see how many milliseconds it is before you are getting a warning from the moderators. And you would deserve it too.So discuss the shortcomings in your experiences with Ariane as much as you like, and I'll happily agree with you on some of them, but at least do it from a fair standpoint. That's all I would expect from anyone.Al

Let's dispense with the fiction that this is just a level-headed discussion of the the dry realities of activation policies, shall we? This thread has been a soapbox for anyone with an animus against Ariane to rehearse ancient history, and even take pot shots at other companies whose past releases have not met with their approval and, are, therefore, Bad.Looks like some pushback for Al's positive review of Ariane's airplane (by the way, did you know they make a good 737?) It was very detailed and did not allow much reasonable criticism of the product, so now everyone gets to vent about the activation policy for crying out loud. If the activation policy were changed today, don't you think the next thread would be about "highway robbery" because of the price? And if they dropped the price, we'd have just as heated criticism of the fact that you have to pay for liveries. And if they gave away free liveries and donated all profit to cancer research, we would still have Peter Tishma to talk about. And besides, it all came too late, and we can laugh at their efforts to address the very things we've complained about while smashing our CDs.If you want to say you have a problem with a reactivation charge that might be levied if the company has reason to wonder about the number of reinstalls, that's fine. I would not say that is an unreasonable position, although if you have no money at stake because you won't buy from them, I'd wonder if you harped on it. If you further want everyone to know what companies are on your preferred list and what companies are blacklisted, that's fine, too, although that's really your business and I'm personally not all that interested. And yes, you have a right to go on to say any other thing you want, well-informed or otherwise. But if you can read through this thread and honestly say it represents one of the great moments in AVSIM history, where reasonable people have come together for an informed discussion of activation policies, then that's more than I can do. Sorry.Bringing up software piracy is very relevant, too. If the collective wisdom of a respected fight sim community is that Ariane is beyond the pale, many will find moral justification for torrented copies, on the theory that it isn't really stealing if the people who make it are themselves crooks. And if you don't believe me, I think you can find hints of that notion in other threads. Oh, and Wilco products have some of the best support I've ever seen. Just because it is unofficial doesn't mean it is any less valuable. I could point to some unanswered questions even from the list of Approved Developers, and even one or two rather disrespectful comments, because when all you hear is how great you are, you can start to believe your own buzz. This thread has crossed over to the more heat than light category, although I got a chuckle out of Al's cartoons. Perhaps the argument could be continued graphically.

To Tim and Al,Thank you both for keeping such a level head during this whole thread.

To get things a little more on track. Here's what I've just been up to...I just contacted Ariane about the two main gripes people have expressed on this thread, since in fairness, I don't totally disagree with their legitimacy, even if I do question some of the motivations that prompted them. Specifically, I suggested it would be good for many customers if they added a postal contact address of at least some kind, and that if their policy on when exactly activation charges will kick in if you have to reinstall be made clearer than it currently is on their documentation, then that will also be something people would like to see.I have had it confirmed that they are going to add an additional livery in their packages in addition to the BCA and unpainted schemes, so I do know legitimate complaints and requests do not go unheeded, which means if anyone does have a legitimate gripe, I suggest they either mail it to Ariane like I did, or stick it on this thread, and if nobody else fires it off to them, then you can be sure I certainly will do so.I've noted several times, as have others, that the PT argument is getting a little threadbare, and that it would be nice to move on and get Ariane to move on too, so I'm trying to do something about that. AVSIM itself has done that in reviewing one of their products, and certainly has more reason to hold a grudge than anyone who has never bought a product from them, but nevertheless made a move on that score. So we can move forwards instead of indulging in the same old scene.If it all goes horribly wrong, we'll know the critics were justified, but if we can bring the developer of what is essentially a very nice add on aeroplane into a position where people are happy to deal with them, then everyone will be happy. And if that means you get a nice aeroplane for FS, then that will surely be a good thing.Al