Definite reason to take this to the authorities. It violates at least three of the EU"s golden 10 rules. The same 10 that get Microsoft into hot water every now and then: http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_info/10principles/en.pdfAll you need is here. http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/index_en.htm, including national level links.

Do I recall after the demise of PSS that Flight1 said that if they were ever likley to fall by the wayside, which I do hope they don't, they would email an activation key to all their customers which did not require online checking or was I just dreaming again?Phil

Flight1 generates the keys so I dont see what difference it makes if PSS went out of business, the problem is if Flight1 were to go out of business, then hopefully they would give out keys that dont need activation, I cant see F1 going anywhere any time soon though.

Definite reason to take this to the authorities. It violates at least three of the EU"s golden 10 rules. The same 10 that get Microsoft into hot water every now and then:

Frankly, this is largely irrelevant with regard to a EULA. Microsoft's legal troubles with the EU have related to anti-trust law violations, non-disclosure issues, and what were judged to be unfair competition practices. They have little to do with the EULAs in Microsoft's products, or anyone else's.It should be noted here that the A in EULA stands for 'Agreement', i.e. when you agree to it, it becomes a binding contract, that is unless there are legitimate mitigating circumstances that can demonstrate you were subject to what is generally referred to as a 'contract of adhesion', which is a contract forced upon you from a position of non negotiation, and can be deemed unfair in legal terms even after it is signed, which is not the case with Ariane Design's EULA, since it can be viewed in full before purchase. So let's look at that, instead of speculating from a 'barrack room lawyer' stance, shall we?Here is a snippet from the FAQ on Ariane Design's website (note that I have corrected a couple of typos from this excerpt):It says I can only activate onceQDoes this mean if I have a hard disk crash that I cannot activate it ever again?AIf your hard disk crashes you need to contact us again for us to re-enable activation but this will only be for special cases. We will monitor multiple activation requests or attempts and treat them accordingly. After you activate it you can still use the software only on one PC - the files are not able to be copied to another PC because they will be rendered unusable. We do not give out links or new pass keys. The activation system must run from the PC that ordered it.Now, there is nothing particularly unusual in this policy, it may differ from others, and whilst it is certainly not the most free-wheeling one ever seen, there is absolutely no specific mention of charging for a service to reactivate a legitimate purchase that stays within the constraints of their EULA (nor is there any contrary information in that EULA), and it is quite clearly geared towards anti-piracy, based upon the observation of suspicious activity, rather than attempting to screw money out of a legitimate buyer. So, let's look at the purchase process for a legitimate buyer...If you buy from Ariane Design's website, before you can pay, you have to click a tick box during the purchase process. It's quite clear from this tick box that you have to agree to the terms and conditions before proceeding to purchase, because you cannot move to the purchase process where you key in payment details, unless that box is ticked. Therefore, you agree to the conditions before handing over the cash, and nowhere in the conditions does it say anything about charging for reactivation if you have made a legitimate purchase. The only reference to an additional charge which I can find on the Ariane Design website, is in the FAQs, where it states the following:Can I access my old orders to download them again?QWhat happens to the old orders from the old site; can they be opened here so I can download my old product if I lost my files?AThe old server is in a different geographic location. The old files have been removed from the old server and placed on DVD storage backup. For customers wishing to have access to their old files who have been unfortunate to lose them, there may be a new structure involving a fee to find the old files, update/and or package them, provide a way to download them and to provide such access or to provide a shipping service. This will cost money to make and is under development so if we have to charge please understand that it is to cover costs. If any customer has an urgent need please click on the about us link below and send an email with the relevant order ID and product ordered.This relates to orders made prior to 2007 as far as I am aware (I'm willing to be corrected on that one by anyone who knows otherwise, but I'm fairly certain that is correct). Since it would apparently involve someone digging something out of an old server somewhere, it's not really an unreasonable notion to charge for such a service in my opinion, although feel free to differ with me on that score.Beyond Ariane's own web presence, you can also purchase the Ariane products from fspilotshop.com and simmarket.com (there may be other sites where you can buy the things, but those are the two I know of).Here is the legal stuff from Simmarket:YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT YOUR USE OF THIS SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMISSIBLE BY APPLICABLE LAW, simMarket DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.There is other stuff relating to this also stated, but that's the main bit that counts. And here is the bit from FSpilotshop (edimensional):WE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, INCLUDING WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. NO WARRANTY NOT SET FORTH IN THIS AGREEMENT WILL BE VALID.Essentially this means that for any purchase made of the Ariane products, you're under the EULA from Ariane, and you can check that out from the company's website prior to your agreement to it, or your purchase. Do this, and that is the agreement you make. In short, nobody forces you to agree to it unseen, therefore it is not a contract of adhesion. I'm not allowed to reproduce the Ariane EULA here, since they state on their website you can't do that, but here is a link to the Ariane Design EULA if you want to check it out:http://www.arianedesign.com/Content.do?sta...p;content=termsSo there you have it. It's not the best system in the world, or the loosest EULA on the planet, and it is apparently currently undergoing a bit of a change from what I can gather, but it is nevertheless quite clear that if you change your PC they will probably reactivate the thing for you gratis, but if you keep doing that a lot, they will (quite rightly) suspect something untoward is going on, and possibly make you cough up some cash. You will also note that it plainly states in the Ariane Design EULA, that if you don't like their rules, then you should not buy their product. It may be a trifle blunt, but you can't say they are being underhand when that is there in black and white.Let's just clarify one further point here. I am in no way an apologist for Ariane Design, I'm simply trying to steer us around the speculation and misguided legal opinions, to point out the facts. Yes, I reviewed their 737-900ER for FSX on AVSIM, but that was a review of the product itself, which I found to be pretty good. It does not mean I am their spokesman, whipping boy, or anything else. Nor does it mean that I agree with, or particularly like their policies, and in fact I'm on record as actively disliking some of the things they do (notably charging for repaints and not providing a paint kit). But I feel it is only fair to point out that there is a lot of misinformation and ill-informed guesswork about Ariane's activation policy on this thread, and if we are to take the stance of saying there are things we don't agree with, or think are suspect in any way, then we should do so from a position of being properly informed, rather than speculating about what and what is not the case with regard to the company's policies and any agreements a purchaser of those products makes.Al

All well and good... except...There are those who have indeed been charged for reactivation. There are also those who have been flat out accused of theft when asking for a reactivation. There are those who've been given a reactivation without question. This discussion is far more about whether they're a upstanding business entity than it is about legal arguments over text interpretation (which apparently is interpreted differently by Ariane themselves).I've read enough at AVSIM and Flightsim to know that Ariane is questionable, at best, and it's probably best that no one purchase from them. That's my opinion, as a consumer who's purchased many FS products through the years.

AlThe Q&A are irelevant - what matters is the Terms and Conditions. Ariane's are rambling - at times incoherent - and include mis-statements and bluster There are also misspellings and doubtful grammar that suggests they have not been checked by a lawyer. Taken overall they give me a clear impression of Ariane's attitude to its customers and it isn't a favourable one.Reverting to the question of re-activation, Ariane's Terms and Conditions state:The decision of our Administration Departments or Support Departments to release a key based on a customers history or circumstances is final and binding as part of our terms and a customer hereby agrees to such terms.In other words Ariane decides whether you can re-activate. You can, of course, chose the accept that and buy or walk away. I know what I'd do.

As I said, I'm not apologising for Ariane, just clearing up a misconception about the legality of their position. Neither of you need to view me as a personal advocate of it. I'm just clarifying it, nothing more.As it happens, I don't like it much either, and would prefer it to be like the Flight 1 system (easily the best), but it is what it is, and if you can accept it, then you get a pretty nice 737. If you don't want to accept it, just like the price, you don't have to. That's the only point I was making, not whether I think it is admirable.Al

Alunder the UK Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations much of the Ariane Terms and Conditions could be deemed unfair under a number of headings and, as such, not binding on the purchaser.However, this is also irrelevant because this matter almost certainly will never go to court. The only sensible assumption is simply to write off any money you've paid to Ariane and accept that you'll have to pay again if your change you computer and want to continue using the product.Incidentally, the UK (EU) Distance Selling Regulations require a firm selling over the internet to provide the buyer with the firm's full geographic address when payment is made in advance before the contract is completed. These Regulations also require this information to be confirmed in writing or another durable medium before delivery at the latest. Durable is not defined, but the Office of Fair Trading's guidance is that "We do not consider that information on a website is durable as it can be changed at any time after the consumer has accessed it."Could someone who has confirm if Ariane complies with these legal requirements?

Unless they are in the UK, it has little meaning.Enforcing local laws across international boundaries is questionable at best.

Alunder the UK Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations much of the Ariane Terms and Conditions could be deemed unfair under a number of headings and, as such, not binding on the purchaser.However, this is also irrelevant because this matter almost certainly will never go to court. The only sensible assumption is simply to write off any money you've paid to Ariane and accept that you'll have to pay again if your change you computer and want to continue using the product.Incidentally, the UK (EU) Distance Selling Regulations require a firm selling over the internet to provide the buyer with the firm's full geographic address when payment is made in advance before the contract is completed. These Regulations also require this information to be confirmed in writing or another durable medium before delivery at the latest. Durable is not defined, but the Office of Fair Trading's guidance is that "We do not consider that information on a website is durable as it can be changed at any time after the consumer has accessed it."Could someone who has confirm if Ariane complies with these legal requirements?

Ariane ARE in the UK, but they have never published their geographic address. Too many aliases to hide!Toni.

As I noted before, not everything Ariane does is something I admire in terms of good business practice, but please be careful about accusing companies of illegal practices when you do not know it to be the case, and especially when you are incorrect, as is the case here. Doing so is libelous and will not do AVSIM any favours either. There has already been someone banned from AVSIM's forums today for indulging in that sort of thing with regard to Captain Sim, and I'm sure you don't want to join them in their isolation.To clarify this point:The EU Consumer Protection (distance selling) Regulations of 2000, were amended in April 2005, which is when they became part of the UK regulations. These amendments mean that the above quoted regulations do not apply to a number of businesses, including Ariane Design.Specifically, here are the relevant quotes from that legislation, which mean Ariane Design is not contravening the regulations:'This guidance has no legal force and should not be relied on as a complete statement of the law. To understand your rights and obligations fully, study the relevant law or consult a solicitor.''Most of the Regulations, including the information requirements and the cancellation rights, do not apply to:

I've read your post, and come to the conclusion that they must be a transport service... because they're not any of the other types of services mentioned in the part you state is relevant to them. I can assure you they are not a leisure service.... that would be a hotel, or cruise line or travel agency.In fact, unless that's not english I'm reading... they're not exempted by anything you posted.As for thinking they're suddenly a stand-up company... there's no facts in evidence regarding that. :( On a side note, it is not libel to claim you believe that someone is breaking the law. Never has been and hopefully never will be. However, you are correct in that people should be more considerate of AVSIM in what they choose to post.

Ariane reserves the option to deal with what they consider a suspicious number of reactivations by charging a fee. Just because they reserve that option does not mean they plan on exercising it as a source of revenue, or delight in some maniacal, sadistic plot against their customers. The whole argument seems to be bootstrapped on the assumption that Ariane is bad, as opposed to being willing to accept the possibility that they are now just another software company out to produce a nice product, make some money and develop a fan base. These Fatal Attraction threads where people seemingly can't stand the idea of someone else enjoying a product they disapprove of are oddly compelling for me, though :-) Must be the pain meds that keep me from getting riled at what other people like.

The EU Consumer Protection (distance selling) Regulations of 2000, were amended in April 2005, which is when they became part of the UK regulations. These amendments mean that the above quoted regulations do not apply to a number of businesses, including Ariane Design.

The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling)(Amendment) Regulations 2005 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050689.htm didn't amend Regulation 6 of the 2000 Regulations http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002334.htm which covers as it always did: 2 b contracts for the provision of accommodation, transport, catering or leisure services, where the supplier undertakes, when the contract is concluded, to provide these services on a specific date or within a specific period

Specifically, here are the relevant quotes from that legislation, which mean Ariane Design is not contravening the regulations:'This guidance has no legal force and should not be relied on as a complete statement of the law. To understand your rights and obligations fully, study the relevant law or consult a solicitor.''Most of the Regulations, including the information requirements and the cancellation rights, do not apply to:

You are correct, they are not quotes from the legislation, they are quotes from the Department of Trade and Industry's guidelines on understanding the legislation, which is of enough use to make the point, since if I actually quoted the regulations it would have been a thread ten pages long. And there is no need to get pedantic as that in order to get the point over. In choosing to quote from that source, I was simply cutting to the chase.Like most laws - and indeed guidelines - they are open to interpretation, and there are two important points in that notion. The first is that what we are talking about is not a full law on the UK statute books - like a lot of EU stuff, it is often voluntary as far as companies following it goes - and the second is that if a flight simulator add-on for entertainment purposes is not for leisure, then what else is it? This is not a stretch of the imagination. We can split hairs all we like, and that is in fact what lawyers tend to make a career out of, so I think a half decent lawyer could make a case for Ariane with those quotes. All they would need to do is demonstrate enough ambiguity in the text to make their case, and you wouldn't need Perry Mason to pull that off, even a low rent conveyancer could probably manage it. That is the point.Obviously you are not going to agree with me on this, but there you go, the fact that there are two different interpretations of that in our standpoints illustrates the concept. In any case, I am more concerned about AVSIM and its forum members not getting in trouble than I am about whether Ariane could make a case out of that, so feel free to disagree with me if you wish.But what is in no doubt as far as ambiguity is concerned, is that one look at the last page of the Ariane installation guide which you get with their products will tell you that they are most certainly not averse to taking legal action against people, and as you know, things got into that territory some years ago with Ariane and AVSIM. The problem is, a lot of people who complain about Ariane will not be in a position to do that, because they have never actually bought an Ariane product and won't have that documentation, which is akin to complaining about the heat in the desert when you are in Siberia. This is why I mentioned all that stuff.Al