The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling)(Amendment) Regulations 2005 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050689.htm didn't amend Regulation 6 of the 2000 Regulations http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002334.htm which covers as it always did: 2 b contracts for the provision of accommodation, transport, catering or leisure services, where the supplier undertakes, when the contract is concluded, to provide these services on a specific date or within a specific period Your quotes are not from the legislation. I quote in full from OFT's guidance dated September 2006 http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_...eral/oft698.pdf. The requirements to provide pre-contractual information, written andadditional information, the right to cancel and the obligation on thesupplier to carry out the contract within a maximum of 30 days do notapply to the following types of contract....

• Contracts to provide accommodation, transport, catering or leisure services (for example hotel accommodation; plane, train, or concert tickets; car hire; or sporting events) where you agree to provide the service on a specific date or within a specific period. However, long-term residential hotel accommodation agreed under a distance contract may be considered to be rented accommodation andtherefore subject to the DSRs.

By no stretch of the imagination is Ariane providing accommodation, transport, catering or leisure services so it is not exempt.

Here is an further quote from the Office of Fair Trading regarding 'distance selling' which should apply and be included in information about the trader:"....the geographic address of the business to which the consumermay direct any complaints. There is no definition of

...As it happens, I don't like it much either, and would prefer it to be like the Flight 1 system (easily the best), but it is what it is, and if you can accept it, then you get a pretty nice 737. If you don't want to accept it, just like the price, you don't have to. That's the only point I was making, not whether I think it is admirable.Al

Al,Am I to understand that you like it a little? Not much, but a little?I've been around in the community a long time and have visited Ariane's site several times. I've allways found the product information and term of sale to be somewhat confusing and odd. The problems a lot of buyers seem to have with both activation and reactivation have kept me from buying anything from them. IMO this is the best way to send a clear message to a company: "You won't continue to be in business if you don't change your way of doing business." Don't buy anything from Ariane until they change the term of sale and rules regarding reactivation.

The first is that what we are talking about is not a full law on the UK statute books - like a lot of EU stuff, it is often voluntary as far as companies following it goes.

Don't believe that! The Distance Selling Regulations are set out in a Statutory Instrument . Statutory Instruments are secondary legislation but still have the full force of law. Statutory Instruments (SIs) are a form of legislation which allow the provisions of an Act of Parliament to be subsequently brought into force or altered without Parliament having to pass a new Act.http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/L07.pdfThe UK Rules of the Air Regulations are also a Statutory Instrument and compliance with them is not voluntary.http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19961393_en_1.htm

- and the second is that if a flight simulator add-on for entertainment purposes is not for leisure, then what else is it?

First, the exemption applies to services, not to goods. It also only applies to the type of services mentioned in the guidance in the part you omitted - for example hotel accommodation; plane, train, or concert tickets; car hire; or sporting events. Second, even then, it only applies to services where where the supplier undertakes, when the contract is concluded, to provide these services on a specific date or within a specific period. Where is such an undertaking?On your argument all sports equipment, toys, games, items for hobbies etc etc that are used for leisure purposes would be exempt. Would you argue, (making a substitution in your own words) that if a flight simulator joy-stick for entertainment purposes is not for leisure, then what else is it?

Don't ask me. As I noted earlier, I'm neither a lawyer, nor a representative of Ariane, but I did note that many companies are exempt from that requirement, and that it is not a hard and fast UK law, so it is my belief that they are not. The only thing I do somewhat represent, is AVSIM because of my position as a reviewer. I take that very seriously indeed and because that it so, and in common with the AVSIM ethos, I like to see things remain fair, even with companies who may have things about them which I don't particularly like (see my review of the Ariane FSX 737-900ER and comments about the cost of additional repaints if you want an example of the things I am less keen on with regard to Ariane).But in regards to that legislation, that is nothing more than my own interpretation of things, and it's not up to me to defend Ariane's position in any sense other than trying to remain bipartisan, so all I am doing on this thread is attempting to offer some balance because there are many people who are similarly unqualified when it comes to legal matters indulging in barrack room lawyer statements which don't have any particularly solid foundation. Needless to say, of more immediate concern to me than whether this does or does not do Ariane any favours, is that these are statements which could potentially get people into trouble, which I would not want to see, and it will certainly not do AVSIM any favours either, which I definitely don't want to see.Interestingly, I just did a quick flirt through this thread, and by my reckoning there are well over thirty people who have posted on it. I'd be interested to learn how many of that number have actually bought a product from Ariane, and if they have not, then why they feel the need to get so up in arms about a EULA which has no effect on them. It's perfectly fine to discuss such matters, and everyone is of course entitled to do so, which is what a forum is for, but to get irate about something that does not affect you is just plain silly, and to suggest that a company is breaking laws when they probably are not, is similarly unwise and not a little unfair. My motivation for appearing to stick up for Ariane centres around that, and has no other agenda. I would do the same for any other company facing such flak if I felt it was in any way unfair.I've bought two products from Ariane. One was an experiment to find out if their FSX 737 NG was any good, and the results of that experiment are on show in the form of the review I did for AVSIM. Having been fairly impressed with their product, I also bought a different NG from their range for FS9 (the 737-800). It was my choice to buy those products, and my choice to accept their EULA. Yes I had some activation delays, but nothing major and to be completely fair to Ariane, they have been absolutely straight with me, and everything I have from them works as advertised and is fun to play around with.I can also confirm that what they say about their activation emails going to the spam folder on your ISP and not making it to the email on your computer is absolutely true, because that happened to me, and like many others, I initially thought they had not sent me an email and was ready to be just as irate as anyone else who finds themself with that mistaken belief. What is more, they did me no favours whatsoever in the knowledge that I was reviewing their product; they've not given me anything for free, or things of that nature, if anything, the opposite is true, with them initially treating me with somewhat understandable suspicion given that this thread is the kind of thing you invariably see on AVSIM and other FS forums, so I can't blame them for that.There may come a time when somewhere down the line I have a new hard drive and want to install my Ariane 737s onto it and find I cannot, but it is my belief that Ariane will not charge me for doing so, since they have been pleasant with me in my dealings with them, and contrary to popular belief, they do not attempt to turn shooting themselves in the foot into a virtue as far as I can tell. I don't know that for sure, and I'm not about to destroy my computer in order to find out, but it is nevertheless what I suspect. If I am wrong, then so be it, it was my choice to tick the box in agreement to their EULA.It's simple; if you don't like the constraints of that EULA, don't buy the products constrained by it. And if you don't, then why get upset by it? Like every other product you can get for FS, it is your choice whether to click on that 'buy now' button. My review for AVSIM was about the product and whether it was any good, the decision to buy it rests solely with the individual, and only he or she can decide that part.Al

I always thought a discussion such as this was to allow fellow members to have the opportunity to know what is good and bad about a product/developer.While I've never purchased Ariane's products, I've clearly stated why. Are you stating that because I find their business practice inappropriate and unworthy of my or anyone else's interest that I can not say so simply because I chose to not purchase their product?I certainly hope not.

If you read the third sentence, of the third paragraph of my previous post, it will be entirely evident that I'm not saying that at all.Al

AlIf you want to see UK compliant flight sim Terms and Conditions I suggest you look at:http://www.justflight.com/termsconditions.asp(I have no connection with JustFlight other than as a purchaser of UK VFR Scenery several years ago.)Clear simple, straightforward language together with postal addresses.Why should a reputable supplier not give its postal address?

I have no idea why Ariane don't put their postal address on their website, it could be for underhand reasons, maybe not, maybe they forgot, maybe they got firebombed by somebody and don't want it to happen again, I simply do not know. The reason I do not know is because I'm nothing to do with them!I don't need to look on Just Flight's website - they have MY address as well as me having theirs! :( Al

AlIf you want to see UK compliant flight sim Terms and Conditions I suggest you look at:http://www.justflight.com/termsconditions.asp(I have no connection with JustFlight other than as a purchaser of UK VFR Scenery several years ago.)Clear simple, straightforward language together with postal addresses.Why should a reputable supplier not give its postal address?

Why not ask this question about every flightsim developer out there.The only one I could find was Lionheart creations.Please let us know if you find anymore

Please let us know if you find anymore

Leonardo SH SRL, Via Turati, 4/D - 09045 Quartu Sant'Elena (CA) - C.F. e Partita IVA 01707010920Aerosoft GmbH (Ltd)Linberghring 1233142 BuerenGermanyTel.: +49 (0)2955 7603 10Fax: +49 (0) 2955 7603 33eMail: [email protected] two I looked for. Not that difficult.Tom

..maybe they got firebombed by somebody...

Or maybe they were attacked by little green men. Surely the obvious reason for not giving an address is to prevent agrieved customers seeking redress.The Distance Selling Regulations were introduced to stop the public being ripped-off by unscrupulous firms sheltering behind the anonymity of the internet. Thery're still needed. There have been recent cases in the UK of ticket fraud - selling tickets that don't exist for events. The advice given by Society of Ticket Agents and Retailers (STAR) is:If the only way of contacting them is through email or an online contact form then they are already making things difficult for you. No postal address or phone number? Probably best to stop now!http://www.star.org.uk/consumeradvice/buyingonline.aspx

Please let us know if you find anymore

SimmarketsimFlight GmbH Nikolaus-Kopernikus-Str. 4 55129 Mainz [email protected] CEO: Miguel Blaufuks

SimmarketsimFlight GmbH Nikolaus-Kopernikus-Str. 4 55129 Mainz [email protected] CEO: Miguel Blaufuks

Who, incidentally, sell the Ariane 737Al

Who, incidentally, sell the Ariane 737Al

And, incidentially, have a 'no returns' policy which contravenes German AND EU Legislation.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth here, first from the outset I have got to say I am not a fan of Ariane - I would never buy from them as I trust them as a company about as far as I could throw an elephant. That is an opinion that has been built up over a long time from THEIR posts and actions as much as what people have written about them. Charging to Re-activate is a disgrace and hopefully people will be sensible and vote with their wallets on that one.......... Years ago they were traced to the Capability Green Regus Office in Luton UK, although they don't appear to be there anymore - at that time they actually had a fax number on the website, now removed. I very much doubt that they have gone far from there since their web design appears to be based in St Albans, which is not far down the road..... *BUT* .....In fairness to Arianne - looking at some of the developers I have purchased from in the past namely Eaglesoft, FSD & FSGenesis - none of them have an address OR phone or fax number on their websites. I suspect (and will be happy to be corrected) that neither Eaglesoft, FSD or FSGenesis have a central location / office as such so they would probably be giving out someones home address. Although what is different is that on those sites they will openly tell you who is associated with the site/company whereas Ariane - well you can search for that yourself :( ..... also after not "simming" for a long time their products can all be reinstalled without having to beg / grovel / explain yourself.G