On a slightly unrelated matter, I've been informed today that Ariane are reconsidering a few things following some of my comments in the review I did for AVSIM. Among the things up for consideration is the addition of a paint scheme of the customer's choosing in addition to the BCA and Unpainted scheme. It's not absolutely certain this will happen, but that's what I've been told.This is of course not related to activation, but as noted previously, there are changes on the way with that too. So, if nothing else, it is indicative that the less belligerent approach I have taken can see some results, although I'm certainly not claiming it is all down to me.Al

And, incidentially, have a 'no returns' policy which contravenes German AND EU Legislation.

Which legislation?The European Directive 97/7/EC on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts explictly excludes the right to a refund:for the supply of audio or video recordings or computer software which were unsealed by the consumerhttp://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...997L0007:EN:NOTThis is reflected in UK Distance Selling Regulations and, I presume, in German legislation.

The whole argument seems to be bootstrapped on the assumption that Ariane is bad

The whole argument is bootstrapped on specific examples posted by customers who have run into problems with Ariane vs. reactivation. Some are charged, some are not, others are met with downright refusal.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth here, first from the outset I have got to say I am not a fan of Ariane - I would never buy from them as I trust them as a company about as far as I could throw an elephant. That is an opinion that has been built up over a long time from THEIR posts and actions as much as what people have written about them. Charging to Re-activate is a disgrace and hopefully people will be sensible and vote with their wallets on that one.......... Years ago they were traced to the Capability Green Regus Office in Luton UK, although they don't appear to be there anymore - at that time they actually had a fax number on the website, now removed. I very much doubt that they have gone far from there since their web design appears to be based in St Albans, which is not far down the road..... *BUT* .....In fairness to Arianne - looking at some of the developers I have purchased from in the past namely Eaglesoft, FSD & FSGenesis - none of them have an address OR phone or fax number on their websites. I suspect (and will be happy to be corrected) that neither Eaglesoft, FSD or FSGenesis have a central location / office as such so they would probably be giving out someones home address. Although what is different is that on those sites they will openly tell you who is associated with the site/company whereas Ariane - well you can search for that yourself :( ..... also after not "simming" for a long time their products can all be reinstalled without having to beg / grovel / explain yourself.G

At the time they were at Capability Green in Luton, AVSIM proved that the business was indeed being run by Peter Tishma. Shortly after that, they moved and hid their address/phone number and continue that stance to this day.Notwithstanding the merits of their product (as outlined by Al's excellent review), Ariane continue to act in a clandestine manner which is bound to raise valid suspicions, given their background.As I have said on numerous occasions, if you have nothing to hide, why hide? Why create ficticious personas? Why confuse potential customers with infomercial style site advertising and questionable and/or possibly illegal business practices?The solution for Ariane is simple - stop hiding behind a rock, state who you really are, and where, and let your reputation stand or fall by your product alone, not by discussions about shady or unethical business practices.This isn't rocket science - surely even Peter Tishma can understand the damage this is causing to Ariane's ongoing reputation.(And if Peter Tishma really has left Ariane, all the more reason to be 'open'.)Toni.

At the time they were at Capability Green in Luton, AVSIM proved that the business was indeed being run by Peter Tishma. Shortly after that, they moved and hid their address/phone number and continue that stance to this day.

I know - I provided Tom with the details !!!!!! :(G

At the time they were at Capability Green in Luton, AVSIM proved that the business was indeed being run by Peter Tishma. Shortly after that, they moved and hid their address/phone number and continue that stance to this day.Notwithstanding the merits of their product (as outlined by Al's excellent review), Ariane continue to act in a clandestine manner which is bound to raise valid suspicions, given their background.As I have said on numerous occasions, if you have nothing to hide, why hide? Why create ficticious personas? Why confuse potential customers with infomercial style site advertising and questionable and/or possibly illegal business practices?The solution for Ariane is simple - stop hiding behind a rock, state who you really are, and where, and let your reputation stand or fall by your product alone, not by discussions about shady or unethical business practices.This isn't rocket science - surely even Peter Tishma can understand the damage this is causing to Ariane's ongoing reputation.(And if Peter Tishma really has left Ariane, all the more reason to be 'open'.)Toni.

Absolutely. Completely agree with you Toni. With one perhaps minor caveat: It is apparent a lot of people (not completely without justification in some cases) assume the worst about Ariane. In those circumstances, I think even I would be somewhat reticent about saying where I was, given that anyone with an axe to grind could find me if I did so. As we know, there is no law against a nutter having a modem (we saw an example of that when AVSIM got hacked), or indulging in a bit of what they might regard as 'justice' based on the not always justifiable opinions people express about Ariane. In such circumstances, even innocent people could be affected by the 'sins of their fathers', so to speak.Al

Absolutely. Completely agree with you Toni. With one perhaps minor caveat: It is apparent a lot of people (not completely without justification in some cases) assume the worst about Ariane. In those circumstances, I think even I would be somewhat reticent about saying where I was, given that anyone with an axe to grind could find me if I did so. As we know, there is no law against a nutter having a modem (we saw an example of that when AVSIM got hacked), or indulging in a bit of what they might regard as 'justice' based on the not always justifiable opinions people express about Ariane. In such circumstances, even innocent people could be affected by the 'sins of their fathers', so to speak.Al

But what's special about Ariane that it shouldn't comply with the Distance Selling Regulations? I suggest that almost any company has customers with an axe to grind, so should they all be allowed to shelter behind the anonymity of the internet?

I suggest that almost any company has customers with an axe to grind, so should they all be allowed to shelter behind the anonymity of the internet?

Customers yes, but as I've already noted, there are well over thirty people posting on this thread, and I suspect nowhere near that number among them who have actually bought anything from Ariane, and as a consequence, never actually had any trouble with them at all, but for some reason still feel compelled to engage in not entirely righteous indignation.So what we are talking about is a large number of people who have simply formed an opinion based on threads of this nature and the continual rehashing of events which happened over seven years ago (which in a lot of cases, was before many were even members of AVSIM, or even flight simmers), and was entirely settled (see Papa Tango product packaging redesign and the continuing availability of freeware repaints for confirmation of that, and also note my review bringing up that issue, and the above post about Ariane reconsidering matters based on it).So, because such threads attract people who've no personal experience with the company, but enjoy the 'pile on' mentality when the knives are out (see Captain Sim, Abacus, CLS threads too), they are almost certain to perpetuate inaccuracies about what dealing with the company entails, and probably likely to attract some with an unreasonable opinion that is without much factual foundation. I think that'd be a bit like me complaining about the steering on a Chevy when I've never owned one.Would you want people like that to have your address? I know I wouldn't, and why should they need it if they've never bought anything from Ariane. I have, and I couldn't care less where they live or work.In point of fact, I do know that Ariane actually do on occasion let reviewers come to them to have products demonstrated (rather than sending out review copies), so it's not entirely true that they keep their location hidden.Al

Customers yes, but as I've already noted, there are well over thirty people posting on this thread, and I suspect nowhere near that number among them who have actually bought anything from Ariane, and as a consequence, never actually had any trouble with them at all, but for some reason still feel compelled to engage in not entirely righteous indignation.So what we are talking about is a large number of people who have simply formed an opinion based on threads of this nature and the continual rehashing of events which happened over seven years ago (which in a lot of cases, was before many were even members of AVSIM, or even flight simmers), and was entirely settled (see Papa Tango product packaging redesign and the continuing availability of freeware repaints for confirmation of that, and also note my review bringing up that issue, and the above post about Ariane reconsidering matters based on it).So, because such threads attract people who've no personal experience with the company, but enjoy the 'pile on' mentality when the knives are out (see Captain Sim, Abacus, CLS threads too), they are almost certain to perpetuate inaccuracies about what dealing with the company entails, and probably likely to attract some with an unreasonable opinion that is without much factual foundation. I think that'd be a bit like me complaining about the steering on a Chevy when I've never owned one.Would you want people like that to have your address? I know I wouldn't, and why should they need it if they've never bought anything from Ariane. I have, and I couldn't care less where they live or work.In point of fact, I do know that Ariane actually do on occasion let reviewers come to them to have products demonstrated (rather than sending out review copies), so it's not entirely true that they keep their location hidden.Al

That reply doesn't address the question why shouldn't Ariane comply with the Distance Selling Regulations? They are not optional but UK law.

SimmarketsimFlight GmbH Nikolaus-Kopernikus-Str. 4 55129 Mainz [email protected] CEO: Miguel Blaufuks

I said developers, not distributors there is a difference,Now find me some "developers" that display there postal address

I said developers, not distributors there is a difference,Now find me some "developers" that display there postal address

Leonardo SH is a developer. Aerosoft has several of their own in-house developed products.Tom

At the time they were at Capability Green in Luton, AVSIM proved that the business was indeed being run by Peter Tishma. Shortly after that, they moved and hid their address/phone number and continue that stance to this day.Notwithstanding the merits of their product (as outlined by Al's excellent review), Ariane continue to act in a clandestine manner which is bound to raise valid suspicions, given their background.As I have said on numerous occasions, if you have nothing to hide, why hide? Why create ficticious personas? Why confuse potential customers with infomercial style site advertising and questionable and/or possibly illegal business practices?The solution for Ariane is simple - stop hiding behind a rock, state who you really are, and where, and let your reputation stand or fall by your product alone, not by discussions about shady or unethical business practices.This isn't rocket science - surely even Peter Tishma can understand the damage this is causing to Ariane's ongoing reputation.(And if Peter Tishma really has left Ariane, all the more reason to be 'open'.)Toni.

If Ariane are trying to hide (which I doubt) they are not trying very hardJust put this into google04363467 ARIANE DESIGN FLIGHT SIMULATION LTDA little more work will reveal the names and addresses of the two directors, neither of which is P.Tishmaa small amount of money will even buy you a copy of the accounts.Seems fairly transparent to me

I said developers, not distributors there is a difference,Now find me some "developers" that display there postal address

Ariane sell their own products 'direct' - that makes them distributors as well as developers and as such, are subject to the laws regarding distance selling.Toni.

Ariane sell their own products 'direct' - that makes them distributors as well as developers and as such, are subject to the laws regarding distance selling.Toni.

Toni as you are probably never going to purchase anything from Ariane either now or in the futureWhy does Ariane bother you so much?Every thread about Ariane that appears, sooner or later you jump in, why does this Company have this effect on you?

A little more work will reveal the names and addresses of the two directors, neither of which is P.Tishmaa small amount of money will even buy you a copy of the accounts.

He was never listed as a director when they were based at Capability Green - although was still part of the company.G