Okay, thanks, if you think there is any legal theory / practical means of getting court relief over your Ariane purchase, more power to you. Far be it from me to take business away from lawyers! For the benefit of everyone else, when you buy software, you are purchasing a license to use, not the electrons contained in the download. I agree that this is counter-intuitive and may not survive as an economic model into the future, but that's the way it is. Any contract is an agreement for the exchange of goods and/or services and legally competent parties (not computers -- yet) may enter into such agreements, usually without anything in writing unless it is a major purchase. Parties may negotiate any terms they like, as long as they don't violate some law that protects an important public policy.When you buy an Ariane airplane or any add-on -- unless they have a weird non-standard contract -- you don't own anything. That is why it is called an End User License Agreement (EULA), not an Final Ownership Agreement. Property is bundle of rights, it is not a thing, but a legal concept. It can range from the temporary enjoyment (or disappointment with) a service like movie to complete ownership of Blackacre in fee simple. I don't own my apartment, but I have negotiated certain rights to enjoyment contained in the lease. (I didn't read that either.)Here's what Araine's agreement is telling you (I read it), and to which are signalling your agreement by pushing the button (that's why there is always some action required when you install software; it is the electronic equivalent of signing on the dotted line). You are buying a license to use our product with one activation for as long as you want. Beyond that it is up to us (they reserve an option under your agreement) whether we charge a fee or not for a new license. If you don't like this, don't buy our product.That's why I don't read EULAs. They're boring. If I don't click the box, I'm not going to get the product installed. If I get the product installed and don't like it, or am otherwise unhappy with the seller, I realize that my legal options have practical limitations. No lawyer is going to help me sue Ariane over $100 software. If I want to try to mess around in small claims court pro se, that's great, but your time would probably be more enjoyably spent flying something else.So what I am relying on has nothing to do with the law. I am all too aware of the law's limitations. Instead, I am relying on the desire of the merchant to maintain good will. I bought something recently from one company, then my laptop I was using for flight simming almost immediately lost the ability to boot into Windows somehow. I bought a nice desktop and transferred all my stuff over. I did not have a chance to back up this one particular thing, and when I asked, they told me that the agreement (which I hadn't read) said they did not replace stuff. BUT... in this case, they would. It was just that simple. If they hadn't I would have shrugged and said, well okay, I guess I'm not very happy about this. But most places are happy to please if they believe you are not abusing them.There are conflicting reports on how eager Ariane is to do this. At best, it seems they have an attitude about it, which is unhelpful. Let's hope they are encouraged to meet legitimate expectations of people. If some people are PIAs, then part of business is sucking that up. Successful businesses learn how to protect themselves without alienating good customers. I hope this is how it ends with Ariane, because they make a damn fine 737-800.And yes, since Ariane is apparently in the UK, we did fight a war against people like them, at least those of us in America.

If that's your business model Ariane, good luck with it. Nobody ever won an argument with a customer. As for me, I'll wait for PMDG.

If the agreement doesn't explicitly lay out what terminates the activation... then the license won't stand in court. Just FYI.

Thanks for the heads up guys, was going to purchase one of their 737's on Monday. No way am I going to do that now. Knowledge is power!!!!BTW does anyone know anything about PMDG and their 737?

BTW does anyone know anything about PMDG and their 737?

Sounds like holiday time this year at earliest from reading through the posts on the PMDG forum. I'm sure it will be more than worth the wait. And in the meantime, we can fly the J41 among other awesome releases from other developers :)

Sounds like holiday time this year at earliest from reading through the posts on the PMDG forum. I'm sure it will be more than worth the wait. And in the meantime, we can fly the J41 among other awesome releases from other developers :)

Is there a new J41 on the ramp? I missed it...

If the agreement doesn't explicitly lay out what terminates the activation... then the license won't stand in court. Just FYI.

But it will never get to court.

.... and (just to add my name to the list - as a message to the Ariane team) I was also looking to buy the 737. I am semi-retired, have a decent disposable income, and also spend about $1000 on sim software every year. I'm (very happily) flying the LH Maddog Pro since November '07, but I also want the Dreamfleet 727X (if Paul Golding ever gets it finished!!!); I also would like a 737 - and I'm just waiting for that little DC-9 to get sorted out. I'm sure I'm not the only guy out there that is influenced by these forums, and if Bonkster's experiences have an impact on me - then they also impact those others like me. I'm also equally sure that the Ariane team actively reads this forum, and there must be considerable angst among those team members toward whoever manages the company, they reading this and their recognition of how the Sim Community feels about their product.They say a fool and his money are soon parted: all I can say is that the fool running Ariane must be losing money hand over fist.

The EULA which is probably unenforcable in a Court of Law is irrelevant, as is the 'pretend lawyer' who put it together.The topic raises an important question though.What if/when Ariane (or company with same practise) goes out of business? What happens to all those who have bought their products, legitimately changes their computer or hardware, and find they can no longer re-install the planes they have paid for?Of course, I do realise that businesses cease trading and as a result, the consumers may no longer get service, spare parts, etc. But they can still use the product (assuming it still works) as they legitimately own it.In this case, it seems you own nothing. You are apparently granted permission by Ariane to use their software, at the entire discretion of Ariane's "management", and can be fleeced by them (again at their entire discretion) if you change your hardware for any reason (failure included), or ....aren't 'nice' to them. And if you don't completely agree to their conditions, you can't install the planes in the first place!Surely, this is little more than extortion. Still, I guess it's par for the course when those responsible for this ridiculous behaviour spend their lives hiding behing aliases with no way of being directly contacted by their customers."Buyer Beware" doesn't even come close!Toni.

It seems like I can always be counted on to take the minority position, but my experience has been that forum buzz is an unreliable guide because posters tend to be self-selected due to having a problem of one sort or another, and even then you have to sift the general problems from the situation-specific ones, and the background noise of people commenting about what they have heard, but not experienced first hand. Add the well-known "confirmation bias" problem and you get further from the mark.My experience with Ariane indicates that it is in some ways odd, and makes a good, if pricey, product that I can't get elsewhere. If I have to reactivate for some reason, I expect I might be exposed to a bit of attitude, which I would let roll off my back like water off a duck as long as it happened, which my sense is that it would. If their EULA was written by a lawyer, I'd be surprised, but it doesn't matter anyway because I can't remember the last time I've had the felony docket delayed because the judge was tied up in a software EULA case. Those are probably somewhere down there below prosecutions resulting from the INTERPOL investigations I'm threatened with every time I pop in something from Blockbuster.Does that mean that other people's opinions aren't valid? Nope. Just means that it is always better to sift the facts, take into account bias, interest, opportunity to observe, and then make up your own mind. If I had listened to forum buzz, the only thing I would be flying is a particular three-holer and an aging twin, and maybe not even those because there are always problems and complaints. I would have missed some things I enjoy very much, like a fun, if not overly detailed 747 and a MD-80 that gave a lot of people serious OOM problems and didn' t measure up to the competition in realism. Also a nice 737-800 from a company who could take PR lessons from North Korea and see improvement. So buy or don't buy what you want, but be fair to yourself and consider the good reports along with the bad, and recognize that we are probably in a golden period where activation issues are going to be top-of-mind for the company in question. Maybe the offer of activation came too late for the one poster, but I don't see it as anything but encouraging.And, Toni, I think you'll find most software is covered by a EULA, which does not confer the complete bundle of rights we ordinarily associate with "ownership" so licensing is not something Ariane dreamed up. When you depend on the company staying in business for reactivation, you are indeed assuming a risk that your interest might last longer than theirs. But a lot of companies rely on confirmation from HQ in a reactivation, and sometimes not even after a hardware change.Personally, I have the airplane, and I don't care whether you do, or Ariane goes belly up (by that time I'll probably be flying something else). I would just hate to see the only reason someone didn't get something they might enjoy was because they were pretty sure they would have significant activation issues, when that is not necessarily going to be the case.

The EULA which is probably unenforcable in a Court of Law is irrelevant, as is the 'pretend lawyer' who put it together.The topic raises an important question though.What if/when Ariane (or company with same practise) goes out of business? What happens to all those who have bought their products, legitimately changes their computer or hardware, and find they can no longer re-install the planes they have paid for?Of course, I do realise that businesses cease trading and as a result, the consumers may no longer get service, spare parts, etc. But they can still use the product (assuming it still works) as they legitimately own it.In this case, it seems you own nothing. You are apparently granted permission by Ariane to use their software, at the entire discretion of Ariane's "management", and can be fleeced by them (again at their entire discretion) if you change your hardware for any reason (failure included), or ....aren't 'nice' to them. And if you don't completely agree to their conditions, you can't install the planes in the first place!Surely, this is little more than extortion. Still, I guess it's par for the course when those responsible for this ridiculous behaviour spend their lives hiding behing aliases with no way of being directly contacted by their customers."Buyer Beware" doesn't even come close!Toni.

As long as there are fools who will part with their money in the face of Ariane's published terms and conditions then Ariane will remain in business. And if it goes out of business then they are on their own.But, as I said in an earlier post, I have little sympathy with them - Ariane's terms and conditions make its position perfectry clear.

my experience has been that forum buzz is an unreliable guide

Don't think so, Tim; just ask FS Genesis, the ActiveSky, guys; RealAir; Flight1; Carenado; PMDG; Shockwave/A2A; FlyTampa; CoolSky; OrbX....I reckon the buzz about Captain Sim and Ariane is just about right on.

Don't think so, Tim; just ask FS Genesis, the ActiveSky, guys; RealAir; Flight1; Carenado; PMDG; Shockwave/A2A; FlyTampa; CoolSky; OrbX....I reckon the buzz about Captain Sim and Ariane is just about right on.

Absolutely, after being on the forums for years you can begin to get a pulse on which companies are operating with a reasonable business model, one that looks to make reinstalling their products easy and yet verify the owner of the product. Most addons I have purchased just have an online activation that verifies and then allows you to reinstall. Simple, easy and user friendly. I have to admit, I did not read the EULA and it probably is clear that I was licensing the product. I assumed that they would be similar to what other companies offer, within the norm, so-to-speak. In order to stay competitive these guys better re-evaluate their business model in the light of other companies practices.

It seems like I can always be counted on to take the minority position, but my experience has been that forum buzz is an unreliable guide because posters tend to be self-selected due to having a problem of one sort or another, and even then you have to sift the general problems from the situation-specific ones, and the background noise of people commenting about what they have heard, but not experienced first hand. Add the well-known "confirmation bias" problem and you get further from the mark.My experience with Ariane indicates that it is in some ways odd, and makes a good, if pricey, product that I can't get elsewhere. If I have to reactivate for some reason, I expect I might be exposed to a bit of attitude, which I would let roll off my back like water off a duck as long as it happened, which my sense is that it would. If their EULA was written by a lawyer, I'd be surprised, but it doesn't matter anyway because I can't remember the last time I've had the felony docket delayed because the judge was tied up in a software EULA case. Those are probably somewhere down there below prosecutions resulting from the INTERPOL investigations I'm threatened with every time I pop in something from Blockbuster.Does that mean that other people's opinions aren't valid? Nope. Just means that it is always better to sift the facts, take into account bias, interest, opportunity to observe, and then make up your own mind. If I had listened to forum buzz, the only thing I would be flying is a particular three-holer and an aging twin, and maybe not even those because there are always problems and complaints. I would have missed some things I enjoy very much, like a fun, if not overly detailed 747 and a MD-80 that gave a lot of people serious OOM problems and didn' t measure up to the competition in realism. Also a nice 737-800 from a company who could take PR lessons from North Korea and see improvement. So buy or don't buy what you want, but be fair to yourself and consider the good reports along with the bad, and recognize that we are probably in a golden period where activation issues are going to be top-of-mind for the company in question. Maybe the offer of activation came too late for the one poster, but I don't see it as anything but encouraging.And, Toni, I think you'll find most software is covered by a EULA, which does not confer the complete bundle of rights we ordinarily associate with "ownership" so licensing is not something Ariane dreamed up. When you depend on the company staying in business for reactivation, you are indeed assuming a risk that your interest might last longer than theirs. But a lot of companies rely on confirmation from HQ in a reactivation, and sometimes not even after a hardware change.Personally, I have the airplane, and I don't care whether you do, or Ariane goes belly up (by that time I'll probably be flying something else). I would just hate to see the only reason someone didn't get something they might enjoy was because they were pretty sure they would have significant activation issues, when that is not necessarily going to be the case.

It amazes me how flippant some people can be when paying for expensive items. I really dont have the opportunity to be willy nilly and go out and buy all the time..............tight budget. So for me I have to do some ground work first if I am going to part with my money. Perhaps if more people did then companies like this would not be able to exist.Thank god for these forums, and other consumer based forums.

If I've amazed anyone, that is a lot more than I intended by pointing out that there is something to be said for making up one's own mind, and that licensing is not a concept unique to Ariane. I don't think I have gone so far as to say their reactivation scheme is a good plan, merely that I have my doubts it would be applied if my computer broke and I found myself explaining that to them. Of course, as a fool who traded with Ariane in the first place, my opinions should be discounted as the ramblings of a mental defective, especially since I have found things to enjoy about Captain Sim products, as well. My enjoyment of PMDGs 737, 747 and MD-11, and Leondardo's Maddog, and Coolsky's MD Super 80 Pro and any number of other approved products, is inexplicable, except even a broken clock is right twice a day.