Where did the international prevention system fail?Where did our system fail?Where did the local first line defenders manage the event well?How can we insure more of this best practice?How can we minimize the need for 1st defenders on public movement systems?Curious,Braun

I continue with the opinion that dogs trained to alert on the scent of explosives should be added to the airport screening process. The dogs should be walked past the passengers lined up for the metal detectors and carry on/shoe X-ray. I suspect for the next several years, possibly a decade or two, properly trained dogs will be a more economical option than any sort of artificial sniffer technology.

Where did our system fail?

Too much of political correctness. Israelis engage heavily in passenger ethnic/religious/political profiling and it suits them just fine. It is absolute nonsense in spreading thin all the TSA resources on 99.9% passengers which will never be a threat.

Too much of political correctness. Israelis engage heavily in passenger ethnic/religious/political profiling and it suits them just fine. It is absolute nonsense in spreading thin all the TSA resources on 99.9% passengers which will never be a threat.

The political correctness is really just for show or on the surface. Although they may want you to believe that they DON'T PROFILE, by all means... they do profile. And most of the resources are spent on the asumed profiles.Where did we go wrong??? Didn't he have as little as 3oz of a nitro glyceryn. If that was the case, thats pretty hard to detect without a patdown, or if needed a body cavity search...Maybe someone else who has spent more than my 15 minutes of watching the latest news can comment on exactly what he had to make his volitile cocktail that turned his lower body into a roasted marshmallow.JB

According to the news reports here in Atlanta (Delta/Northwest Airlines home base), the bomber was using PETN or Pentaerythritol tetranitrate. Nasty stuff apparently, but also used for control of heart conditions, just like nitroglycerin.

I absolutely support profiling. If statistics show a certain type of person is more likely to execute a certain action...common sense tells you to pay more attention to that type...I don't see where this goes wrong. I'm a white 21 year old college student. I would not mind it if I get pulled over leaving a bar at 1am because my type is more likely to be drinking and driving (just an example), as it keeps everyone safer.

There was another discussion on this but since it turned political it had to be terminated.This one is doing nicely-let's keep it that way as I am going to bed!Thank you! :(

From what I'm hearing on the news it seems like this was just another series of mistakes and situations where people didn't communicate things. Furthermore, we may have failed to follow through on what we learned from 9/11.The bomber's father reported to the US Consulate that he was concerned about his son's involvement with extremists. Since the father didn't have any hard evidence that his son was about to commit a crime, they put him on a terrorist watch list rather than the no-fly list. I guess this watch list is Homeland Security's version of "double secret probation."The explosive device was sewn in to the bombers underwear - so basically, he must have crotched it. I know they do a full frisk at EHAM - they frisked me when I was 8 years old just before boarding an ELAL flight. Maybe it was becasue it was El Al? I don't know. The point is people usually don't grab your junk during a frisk and as long as they can sneak bombs in people crotches, they are going to get through.Solutions:*Body Cavity searches before boarding - not gonna happen thank G-d*Bomb sniffing dogs - I would expect a lot of false positives - my dog sniffs everyone's crotch *Full body scanners - not sure if it would have detected this if the device was shaped properly*Develop a profile of the type of person that is most likely to blow up a plane and use it.I agree, they probably do profile but they don't announce it. Nonetheless, they must be doing a pretty bad job if this guy was issued a visa and allowed to board a plane. I think this has more to do with a disconnect in the missions of the State Department, Homeland Security, CIA and FBI. In another thread (that was locked for some reason), I made a facetious comment about this. Perhaps we have reverted back to a pre-9/11 mentality? Terrorism is not an act of war, it is a law enforcement issue. Maybe elections really do matter?In the end, I think AQ is just sending the dumbest people first to test our systems. I think that is a test. Look at the time lapse between 9/11 and the 1st WTC bombing. Their patience outlasts our memories. As the 9/11 report said, it was a failure of our imagination that lead to 9/11.

From what I'm hearing on the news it seems like this was just another series of mistakes and situations where people didn't communicate things. Furthermore, we may have failed to follow through on what we learned from 9/11.The bomber's father reported to the US Consulate that he was concerned about his son's involvement with extremists. Since the father didn't have any hard evidence that his son was about to commit a crime, they put him on a terrorist watch list rather than the no-fly list. I guess this watch list is Homeland Security's version of "double secret probation."The explosive device was sewn in to the bombers underwear - so basically, he must have crotched it. I know they do a full frisk at EHAM - they frisked me when I was 8 years old just before boarding an ELAL flight. Maybe it was becasue it was El Al? I don't know. The point is people usually don't grab your junk during a frisk and as long as they can sneak bombs in people crotches, they are going to get through.Solutions:*Body Cavity searches before boarding - not gonna happen thank G-d*Bomb sniffing dogs - I would expect a lot of false positives - my dog sniffs everyone's crotch *Full body scanners - not sure if it would have detected this if the device was shaped properly*Develop a profile of the type of person that is most likely to blow up a plane and use it.I agree, they probably do profile but they don't announce it. Nonetheless, they must be doing a pretty bad job if this guy was issued a visa and allowed to board a plane. I think this has more to do with a disconnect in the missions of the State Department, Homeland Security, CIA and FBI. In another thread (that was locked for some reason), I made a facetious comment about this. Perhaps we have reverted back to a pre-9/11 mentality? Terrorism is not an act of war, it is a law enforcement issue. Maybe elections really do matter?In the end, I think AQ is just sending the dumbest people first to test our systems. I think that is a test. Look at the time lapse between 9/11 and the 1st WTC bombing. Their patience outlasts our memories. As the 9/11 report said, it was a failure of our imagination that lead to 9/11.

You make some very valid points... In my mind, this election didn't make any changes to the security policies STILL IN EFFECT. There were other failed bombing attempts in the last administration and those attempts included a larger amount of Explosive, so apparently it is getting harder and harder for the ones intent on bombing our airliners to figure out a way to bring enough explosive to actually do some subtantial damage. No, we will never be able to pat down everyone. No we will never shut down commercial aviation. No we will never be able to acurately profile all of the terrorists and not ###### off the public. And no, we will never be able to train enough dogs with the level of drive needed to be consistent in detecting all of the possible explosive chemical compounds. BUT... We have been succesfull in shutting down the worlds largest and most organized terrorist organization from bringing down any more airliners in the last 9 years with the worst two scares being a human sparkler a couple days ago and the man with the lighter to the shoe a few years ago. You mean to tell me that, this is all El Qaida is able to throw at us? It seems to me, we got them stumped and scratching thier heads on how to peak thier heads in the door.The organizations that are the most proactive against terror groups and activities have been recruiting at an alltime high since 9/11. The Western Armed Forces has put alot of money and time into upgrading thier unconventional warfare departments and have made huge steps to increase the security across the globe. To effectively track, gather inteligence and then act upon a terrorist threat succesfully, requires 100's to 1000' times more recources than what is needed by the targeted threat to be a success. This in a nutshell, means it is many times harder and complex to be on the defense in this political situation, than it is to be on the offense. This is also the reason why you will never know about the crappy things our side may do to others with the pure intent on make it easier for our defensive line here purely visible to the press. Like I said, the offense can often be more succesfull with less expendature. IMHO, our side is doing an incredible job in keeping things safe on our side of the fence....There has been a handfull of known incidents within the US since 911. Have you any idea of how many acts of terror have been succsesfully foiled by our professionals on the front lines? I would guess more than a hundred thousand, possibly maybe a million. But we will never know, since we will only hear of the ones that weren't completely diverted or stopped.And for those of you who wanna play armchair quarterback and make comments to critisize all the proffesionals that are doing sucha good job, I suggest you first give up a minimum of 6 years of your life and sign up in some capacity where you can make a difference.JB

Buzz, I'm with you on the fantastic job the military has done on all fronts. Furthermore, I believe the policies we have put in to place over the last several years have protected us. I have no idea how many attacks were foiled after 9/11 but I bet it was quite a few.My concern is that the civilian leadership will undo what the military/security/intelligence has accomplished. It is really about the frame of mind in which we approach the issue. Is international terrorism an act of war or is it a law enforcement issue? Are we going to get to the point that an individual captured in the field would have to have their miranda rights read to them so they can be prosecuted in a NY courtroom? We will see how the KSM trial goes. It could be a great victory for our legal process if he is convicted but my concern is that a lot of the evidence will be thrown our because he wasn't mirandized. I guess we have to trust that our AG knows what he is doing.I don't really think I am armchair quarterbacking because the 9/11 report detailed the failures of our government to connect the dots and this seems like it was another example of not connecting the dots. The reports are now that both the Fort Hood shooter and the guy on the NWA flight had connections with Anwar Awlaki - A radical cleric living in Yemen that was born in the US. Awlaki may actually be dead as a result of a recent air strike over there (military victory).My hope is that our current administration is beginning to see the flaws in its arguments against many of the previous administrations policies. Much to the chagrin of many of his supporters, it seems like he has opted to keep many of these policies in place. My guess is it is one thing to criticize when you are on the outside looking in. Once it is your responsibility to protect the nation and you have seen all of the intelligence, you begin to think differently. I think this is happening and President Obama's Nobel acceptance speech is evidence of that. What concerns me most is the State Department. From what I know, they were the ones that could have kept this guy off the plane. One of the flaws in our system is The President and the Secretary of State have little real influence over the bureaucracy in the State Department because long term bureaucrats know that they will be gone in a few years.I hope you are right that we have them on their heels - it is as plausible as my theory that these are tests and they are just waiting for the right opportunity. To lend credence to your argument, one of the things I learned in college was to not assume that entities are acting logically - I shouldn't assume that this guy was a test. I may be just the best they can do.

Hello,

*Bomb sniffing dogs - I would expect a lot of false positives - my dog sniffs everyone's crotch

:)But "your" dog is not a "bomb sniffing dog"Be sure the reaction of "your" dog will be not the same than the "bomb sniffing dog" if they sniff a crotch stuffed with explosive material.I have seen many "security sniffing dogs" at work for many substances .. and if well trained (it's really time consumming and request experts) it's very efficient.Regards. Gus.

According to reports on the BBC this bloke paid for his ticket in cash, bought a one-way ticket and didn't have any luggage.That should have been enough to flag him as worthy of special attention in airport security. For whatever reason it didn't happen. That should not be allowed to happen again. This time we got lucky. These people are not stupid - they will try something different next time and we need to keep one step ahead to keep the skies safe.I read a report a couple of months ago of a suicide bomber who had a bomb placed inside him and came very close to killing a Saudi prince. Once they start doing that and the bombs cannot be detected it's probably time to stop flying. Or you could only allow certain types of people to fly but that would not happen for all sorts of reasons.We need to either learn how to beam people up or switch to cruise liners! :(

Couple of opinions:1. Trying to find a terrorist at the gate is like a needle-in-the-haystack problem; attempting to do it by mass-screening is just unlikely to be effective, let alone efficient even if you assume the cost of false-positives is negligible.2. The US Dept of Homeland Security was created after 911, specifically because of a perceived "failure to connect dots" finding in the 911 report. Yet it appears that at this point, we are no closer to connecting dots, at least not well enough (there have been some high profile arrests of terrorists but still too many failures). In the creation of DHS, it doesn't appear to me that the US Congress was really working to create an effective and efficient organization -- there were too many political considerations in both parties and in the existing agencies. I get the feeling that DHS is just another layer of bureaucracy on top the existing structure. There may be some benefits, eg US Coast Guard is probably more effective in DHS than DOT.As far as aviation, it remains that the so-called SLF is probably the best defense for the aircraft. I don't hold out a lot of hope for air marshals. On plane the size of a A330, how many would have to be disbursed throughout the cabin to have a realistic chance of preventing this sort of thing?scott s..

Buzz, I'm with you on the fantastic job the military has done on all fronts. Furthermore, I believe the policies we have put in to place over the last several years have protected us. I have no idea how many attacks were foiled after 9/11 but I bet it was quite a few.My concern is that the civilian leadership will undo what the military/security/intelligence has accomplished. It is really about the frame of mind in which we approach the issue. Is international terrorism an act of war or is it a law enforcement issue? Are we going to get to the point that an individual captured in the field would have to have their miranda rights read to them so they can be prosecuted in a NY courtroom? We will see how the KSM trial goes. It could be a great victory for our legal process if he is convicted but my concern is that a lot of the evidence will be thrown our because he wasn't mirandized. I guess we have to trust that our AG knows what he is doing.I don't really think I am armchair quarterbacking because the 9/11 report detailed the failures of our government to connect the dots and this seems like it was another example of not connecting the dots. The reports are now that both the Fort Hood shooter and the guy on the NWA flight had connections with Anwar Awlaki - A radical cleric living in Yemen that was born in the US. Awlaki may actually be dead as a result of a recent air strike over there (military victory).My hope is that our current administration is beginning to see the flaws in its arguments against many of the previous administrations policies. Much to the chagrin of many of his supporters, it seems like he has opted to keep many of these policies in place. My guess is it is one thing to criticize when you are on the outside looking in. Once it is your responsibility to protect the nation and you have seen all of the intelligence, you begin to think differently. I think this is happening and President Obama's Nobel acceptance speech is evidence of that. What concerns me most is the State Department. From what I know, they were the ones that could have kept this guy off the plane. One of the flaws in our system is The President and the Secretary of State have little real influence over the bureaucracy in the State Department because long term bureaucrats know that they will be gone in a few years.I hope you are right that we have them on their heels - it is as plausible as my theory that these are tests and they are just waiting for the right opportunity. To lend credence to your argument, one of the things I learned in college was to not assume that entities are acting logically - I shouldn't assume that this guy was a test. I may be just the best they can do.

I really appreciate your post and in saying that I can keep my reply short and quick.I respect the current administration because they are bright and will both admit when they are wrong, but will also fight if they feel they are right. I think this administration is very good turn in the right direction for numerous reasons. They have a very tough job ahead of them and I think they are positive and motivated enough to keep thier heads up in the process. No the current Pres is not an Ex Military man, but he has a good staff of well experienced Joint Chiefs to listen to and it does seem he respects thier ideas and decisions. I always felt a great leader is one who is able to select and delegate to the best people, which I think he has done very well with.Our current admin is well aware of the possible threats and knows the outcome if he is percieved as being too slack on the bad guys. I think national security will remain to be one of his top priorities if not the most imediate one. I think every close but not successfull terror attempt is worth more in experience than 100's of intercepted attempts that don't make the public eye. It allows our protectors to evaluate themselves and forces them to stay ever so vigilant and think further out of the box. I still want to remind everyone that we will never be 100% protected, thus we will never be 100% safe until the threat is entirely removed. Things will always slip through the crack from time to time, so don't be surprised if it does. I am saying this to remind you how good of a job our friends are really doing to keep us safe. A perfect example is a place like Israel. For years they have been forced to never sleep or look away from thier neighbors in fear of letting thier guard down. You will often hear, time and time again of inocents being hurt or dying because of terrorist attacks, much more often than anywhere else, yet they have the most efficient security force and probably the best no Bulshit methods in keeping things in check, but they get hit more often than most. So again, my thanks and appreciation to those who are making the current decisions on my countries safety. Right now I have nothing to complain about.Interesting statement on the Bomb Dogs...I have had the great opportunity to watch these dogs work and train and I can say I think they are the best method we have to helping us protect the airliners from explosive compounds. IMHO, the only limitations to this method is the following...1. Each chemical compound that a dog recognizes must first be conditioned into the dog as a "drive" trigger. It's like programming a computer. the dog has to have succsefully completed the excercise for each compound hundreds of times to be consistent. This takes time...2. Not many breeds, or specifically dogs have the correct amount of drive or temperment to be excellent bomb dogs.3. The more compounds a particular dog is trained to recognize, generally the less consistent or dependable a dog can be. Examples might be false triggers, or distractions. This means that the more compounds that need to be secured against, then more dogs might be needed to get very consistent and dependable results. False triggers are ok, it just creates a pain in the but for the agency, but distracted avoidance is just as bad as missing a bomb.Now the plusses outweigh the very few negatives. So I do believe we will start to see many more K9 units as handlers and dogs become more available.FYI... My daughters friend's father whom I enjoy a beer with once in a while, owns a K9 selection and training business and supplies dogs and handlers to agencies across the globe. He was a K9 handler for the DEA before 911 and decided after 911 that this business would be a great money maker. Since he started it six years ago, he has made a very good living for himself and he just keeps getting more and more phone calls every day....JB

According to reports on the BBC this bloke paid for his ticket in cash, bought a one-way ticket and didn't have any luggage.That should have been enough to flag him as worthy of special attention in airport security. For whatever reason it didn't happen.

That is exactly what I am talking about. Somewhere someone failed to connect the dots with this guy. Even worse, he may have boarded the flight without a passport.http://detnews.com/article/20091229/METRO0...nvolved-in-plotWe already have procedures in place to prevent people like him from getting on a plane. You would think that having your father nark on you for extremist activities would be enough to prevent you from getting a Visa as well. I bet this probably will be blamed on computer systems not communicating with each other or one department not have access to another department's databases. If that turns out to be the case, it will show that we have failed to act on a number of recommendations made by the 9/11 report.Remember, terrorists only have to be right once to carry out an attack. We have to be right 100% of the time to prevent attacks. BTW, the crotch sniffing dog comment was a joke. I am well aware of their capabilities. :(