PMDG 737 NGX: PMDG's attitude toward realism

[Roadburner426]

A lot of the aircraft I work on, and have been in are way dirtier than the NGX is.. Doing FOD searches I have found Dorito's and stuff after aircraft sorties. Even the brand new aircraft we just got already have paint wearing off all the knobs/levers and just about every other surface in it. So I think it is feasible that a real airline aircraft where you have multiple crews would get that dirty. While I prefer a brand new aircraft since i am going to be doing a 737BBJ livery for mine and treating it as a personal jet. I think the level of dirt/detail is outstanding, and the more I look at the screens the more the dirt grows on me.

[kantk2008]

1-3: It is literally not possible for these things to be more realistic than they are within the confines of FSX. This is not some subjective opinion of mine - I was there and I took the photographs that became the NGX textures. I took them with a professional-level camera with an extremely nice lens mounted on it. I'm talking $5000 worth of equipment here - this was not some little point and shoot with inaccurate color reproduction. The camera was color calibrated and the photos were shot under an overcast sky with diffuse lighting - the absolute best conditions you can get for accurate reproduction in imaging. The actual cockpit we photographed was *DIRTIER* than what appears in these textures - we actually did tone it down somewhat. Do you seriously think we just made up all the dirt and stuff? I don't know how the colors and dirt level can be "unrealistic" when they're literally straight from photos of the real thing. This is a real line aircraft in service, you could go fly on it tomorrow.4. I think you've grown way too accustomed to what our old FS9 NG looked like - unfortunately the old NG's modelling is quite wrong in many respects, including the color (it's hilarious that you claim it's right, considering most people have criticized it). The NGX VC is based on the actual Boeing technical drawings and documentation as well as numerous precise measurements we made inside the real aircraft's cockpit. You also have to realize the fact that a 3D graphics engine ALWAYS introduces some level of distortion to an image, even if your modelling is dead on with the real engineering drawings. It isn't real 3D objects, it's 3D objects being represented on a 2D screen, and you flat out can't do that without distorting things vs. how your eyes actually see them in the real world. Literally every game engine on earth does this, and FSX is no exception. That screenshot was also taken at a very wide zoom angle to get the whole thing in the field of view. (again, necessarily distorts things with the fisheye effect the further out you zoom.We will not be changing what we know to be accurate because someone on the internet doesn't like it. Four of us from this company physically sat in this aircraft - that is good enough for us and I suspect for most everyone else here.

I seriously think you're being way too rude to the original poster. All he was saying was some things he didn't like or could be changed, he wasn't swearing at you or saying how he hated it. In his mind those are some things that are wrong and he respectfully stated them. Whether those cons are right or not, that doesn't matter, I think you should change your attitude. In your whole post it sounds like you're defending yourself, as if he accused you of not using '5000 dollar equipment'. Your last paragraph is atrocious. "We will not be changing what we know to be accurate because someone on the internet doesn't like it. Four of us from this company physically sat in this aircraft - that is good enough for us and I suspect for most everyone else here"There are SOOOO many ways you could have reworded it to better, to be more respectful and not acting as if he personally attacked your views. I've seen your posts throughout this thread and how you've replied to those who have differing views to the rest of the community. I suggest you change it.Karan Kant

[rsrandazzo]

Edward-Thank you for your post. I always chuckle a bit when we read posts like this- because you may not have any idea how many people are at work on this project, or the depth of information we have available to us, or the resources we are in nearly constant touch with while simulating an airplane of this type.If it helps you understand my answers below: I've spent (literally, unfortunately) my entire adult life in aviation. I have contacts all over the industry, and I've spent more time than I care to admit staring out of the top of the panel watching the clouds roll by. What I'm trying to say is: You can trust our expertise in this field. PMDG is not a group of college kids with photoshop and a stolen flight manual trying to make an airplane simulation. When we have questions, reference nearly 20,000 pages of engineering diagrams, documents, charts, tables, manuals and "how to fix this thing" guides provided to us by Boeing. If that doesn't work, we consult with our assembled team of technical experts. If THAT fails, I call Boeing.In other words: We have the resources and talent to "get it right" and we spare no effort in making it happen.Now- you seem concerned about colors: When you spend time around in-service aircraft, you discover very quickly that as an airplane ages you wind up with a mix-match of color pallets. This happens because airliners are component driven, so as things are repaired or adjusted, older components get replaced with newer, or newer replaced by older. This particular MCP was photographed in-airplane, along with the rest of this flight deck... So- I'm sorry the coloration is upsetting to you- but it is real. Realism is what we are striving for.Now, on the subject of dirt: I've spent a career in the airline business- and this cockpit doesn't even come close to the level of dirt you normally find. I used to travel with a miniature bottle of spray cleaner and a box of tissue. I'd spend long legs cleaning everything in site, because the airplane NEVER gets taken out of service for a thorough cleaning of the flight deck. Airplanes are not stagnant museums, they are working environments that are moved in and out of a half dozen times a day by crews and maintenance workers who leave years worth of wear, dirt, fingerprints, and general schmutz.These cockpit textures were created by conducting an in depth photo survey of an in service airplane in the mid-life cycle phase. None of the textures are synthesized- they are created through a complex process of imaging and color correction. Once again- welcome to realism. In fact- after listening to me complain about the grime for a few months, Vin and Ryan went through a painstaking effort to reduce the amount of dirt that is visible in the images. So- we cleaned this one up a bit...On the cockpit size/scale: I am not entirely at liberty to explain to you why I am so certain that this VC is correctly scaled and sized... But go over my earlier comments about resources and I think you'll come to understand that we didn't create this VC by eyeballing some pictures on Airliners.net (like we did with the original NG... which looks HORRIBLE by comparison...) The data is provided to us by the folks who built her, so I'm going to trust their data. Anything they didn't provide was measured by us... because it is easier that way.On the "Baby Boeing" feel- I'm not sure what to tell you other than I can only assume that your expectations are being set by products that simply lack the true, resource-heavy approach that we have taken with this simulation. Other products that you mention (including our NG1.0!!!) are out of scale, poorly designed and make good approximations to the real airplane- but they aren't perfectly accurate... With the NGX we are changing that once and for all...At any rate- thank you for your feedback. If you spend some time around this forum, you will come to find that PMDG is a team of developers obsessed with providing the finest and most visually accurate simulation possible with current technology. We work closely with the industry and the manufacturer, so we have a few more resources than we like to brag about...Feel free to ASK us if you have questions- If you ask an open ended question we help you understand the process and how conclusions are reached, without having to tell you that your opinion is invalid...

[Roadburner426]

My dream bird. :( (might not be an NG, but with the paint kit I will adapt it to work)

[Tabs]

I seriously think you're being way too rude to the original poster. All he was saying was some things he didn't like or could be changed, he wasn't swearing at you or saying how he hated it. In his mind those are some things that are wrong and he respectfully stated them. Whether those cons are right or not, that doesn't matter, I think you should change your attitude. In your whole post it sounds like you're defending yourself, as if he accused you of not using '5000 dollar equipment'. Your last paragraph is atrocious. "We will not be changing what we know to be accurate because someone on the internet doesn't like it. Four of us from this company physically sat in this aircraft - that is good enough for us and I suspect for most everyone else here"There are SOOOO many ways you could have reworded it to better, to be more respectful and not acting as if he personally attacked your views. I've seen your posts throughout this thread and how you've replied to those who have differing views to the rest of the community. I suggest you change it.Karan Kant

I have a lot invested in this project Karan - I personally took the texture photographs and on some level, yeah I do feel insulted - I put an inordinate amount of time and effort into making sure they were as accurate as they could possibly be. To have people dismissing the work as unrealistic ticks me off.I'll remove the last line, but I'm not taking back the whole post.

[rsrandazzo]

Bryan-

Swap the Pogo Stick for a Penthouse and then you've got "As real as it gets".

Ah- you brought back a funny memory from my time as a Chief...We were on a "no naked women pics on the flight decks" mission...It was hard to get the mostly male crews to take direction on this issue, until one of the gals started leaving little pictures of naked men...The problem went away almost instantly.

[michal]

Karan,I suggest it is you who should change your wording or change your attitude. Adjectives like "atrocius", "rude" do not apply to Ryan's posts. And now you are even finding faults in Ryan's past posts!. Either you are one of those super sensitive fellows or you're simply looking to start a fight for no apparent reason. Cool it dude!

[Tabs]

were any graphical mods used in the photo? im curious. i thought i saw a little bit of ENB.

Yeah, I have John Venema from ORBX's ENB settings on.

[Guest Caines737]

If the waiting time for the NGX is hard, I have a 6 hours old NG picture for you : ) From a flight from SFX to my home place OSL. The real worlds NGX is pretty much like the NGX. They have simulated the NGX very well : ) Keep up the good work! I am looking forward to the release!regards, Agnor Bertheussenwww.agnorbertheussen.comPhotographer

[kantk2008]

Karan,I suggest it is you who should change your wording or change your attitude. Adjectives like "atrocius", "rude" do not apply to Ryan's posts. And now you are even finding faults in Ryan's past posts!. Either you are one of those super sensitive fellows or you're simply looking to start a fight for no apparent reason. Cool it dude!

I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone, and I am not generalizing all of Ryan's posts by my comment, but how he replied to Edward was quite uncalled for. Just read it yourself. It was rude, and in a way, atrocious. I don't think I need to change my wording at all, I meant what I said. I'm not overly sensitive, but Ryan's reply was way too harsh for what Edward was saying and I thought I'd voice my opinion. I understand Ryan's response if the poster was being harsh and giving PMDG undeserved critisism, but Edward was not doing that at all.

[thefsxflyer]

Yes, it may have been a little rude but I feel it was rude to say something that was untrue. Ryan and the PMDG have spent hours and hours working on this plus fsx limitations like simulating backlight. Also saying something about something that isn't even done yet.Don't say anything bad on anything that's not done yet because... its not done.

[VIPERGTSR01]

Whie the work you guys have done look fantastic, it still looks a little too dirty for my liking even if it does represent a full time service aircraft.No chance of a virtual cleaning mini game during cruise? :( *runs to the garage and wipes interior

[Turbine777]

+ 1 for what Michael said to Karan, but x 1000. Ryan didn't give him any atitude there honey, personally I would have had him shot, but hey, that's just me. It just goes to show you that no matter what, people will complain. You wanna see atitiude? oK,,,I couldn't believe I actualy read what she/he said (sorry but I dated a Karen once and don't want to offend you and have you freak out some more). The balls of some people coming to this forum and this topic with the cons? Are you _ _ _ _ _ kidding me? It's not even finished and you get crap like this I really don't get it at all. I also honestly can't stand it when polite individuals ask respectful questions on topics like this and questions that you see lots of people asking the same and still have yet to get an answer. I guess its like real life and you have to be a dic about it to get things? These type of posts seem to get a lot more attention than polite people get and it doesn't make sense.5 years ago I fought a speeding ticket, went to court in a suit and was polite as could be to the court and judge, yet he talked down to me as if I were Charles Manson. The person right after me was a young adult in torn jeans hanging down his butt, underwear showin and gave no respect what so ever and the judge kissed his &@($*. I guess there isn't much different with what I see here. Seriously, this to me reminds me of having the FBI pay the kidnapper. Incase you missed my point there are some really good questions in this topic and the other 2 retired ones that some loyal members have asked over and over with no reply but you all choose to answer crap like this guys spewing? You make no sense at ALL.Since I have quite the atitude now maybe someone will take a minute to go back and answer at least 1 question I asked in the last thread that was +1'd by many others. Sorry folks, but your really surprise me sometimes and the opposite way that I'm use to from you.

[kantk2008]

Yes, it may have been a little rude but I feel it was rude to say something that was untrue. Ryan and the PMDG have spent hours and hours working on this plus fsx limitations like simulating backlight. Also saying something about something that isn't even done yet.Don't say anything bad on anything that's not done yet because... its not done.

I understand that Ryan has spent countless hours to make a great airliner for the FS community, and I acknowledge and respect him for that, but again, for someone who is associated with PMDG, sometimes the diplomatic and respectful response is the way to go. IMO Edward's comments weren't rude at all. He was just basing his opinions on the pictures we got. It's natural for someone to question things based on the evidence they get and all the evidence we have so far is pictures. He didn't say anything was terrible, he just mentioned a few things which in his mind were visual oddities based on the pictures. He never said anything was bad.

[kantk2008]

+ 1 for what Michael said to Karan, but x 1000. Ryan didn't give him any atitude there honey, personally I would have had him shot, but hey, that's just me. It just goes to show you that no matter what, people will complain. You wanna see atitiude? oK,,,I couldn't believe I actualy read what she/he said (sorry but I dated a Karen once and don't want to offend you and have you freak out some more). The balls of some people coming to this forum and this topic with the cons? Are you _ _ _ _ _ kidding me? It's not even finished and you get crap like this I really don't get it all. I also honestly can't stand it when polite individuals ask respectful questions on topics like this and questions that you see lots of people asking the same and still have yet to get a question. I guess its like real life and you have to be a dic about it to get things? These type of posts seem to get a lot more attention than polite people get and it doesn't make sense.5 years ago I fought a speeding ticket, went to court in a suit and was polite as could be to the court and judge, yet he talked down to me as if I were Charles Manson. The person right after me was a young adult in torn jeans hanging down his butt, underwear showin and gave no respect what so ever and the judge kissed his &@($*. I guess there isn't much different with what I see here. Seriously, this to me reminds me of having the FBI pay the kidnapper. Incase you missed my point there are some really good questions in this topic and the other 2 retired ones that some loyal members have asked over and over with no reply but you all choose to answer crap like this guys spewing? You make no sense at ALL.Since I have quite the atitude now maybe someone will take a minute to go back and answer at least 1 question I asked in the last thread that was +1'd by many others. Sorry folks, but your really surprise me sometimes and the opposite way that I'm use to from you.

I'm okay with Karen, I've got that quite a few times in my life and it unfazes me. In fact, thanks for showing me how immature you are or can be. It will definitely help me take the rest of your post more seriously.So, based on your first paragraph, you're saying people shouldn't criticize a product? Instead, they should just go with the flow and praise it, even if they don't like it? Did you even notice that Edward listed some pros too? Damn...you're starting to sound like the Singapore government now. Never say bad about a product, no matter how bad it can be. In the case of PMDG, obviously, there will be almost no 'bad', but no product is perfect. Actually, you're also starting to sound like a a really excited user of Halo or COD. Michael's post was fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but yours is over the top and ridiculous.Listen, Ryan is affiliated with PMDG. It is his courtesy, not a right, to come to the forum and answer questions. Also, Edward's post never asked any questions at all, it just gave some oddities relating to a picture.Concerning my response, I have no regrets. I said what I said. I felt ryan was being quite rude at that time and it was uncalled for. He is a part of PMDG and shouldn't be attacking a post like how he did, especially when said post did nothing wrong.Karan Kant