I talked to an ERJ-145 pilot for American eagle a few years ago who said at ORD they routinely ask them to maintain 250 to the marker (the ERJ-145 VNE speed under 10k is 250 so they would maintain 240). Like the CRJ 100/200, the ERJ can also slow down very quickly. Ben

I'm sorry sir but I doubt that you are talking about the same marker as we are.It's simply not common sense to control an aircraft at this speed on the glide untill it's 4 DME from treshhold. If a controller would ask a pilot to do so, he would have to have a very good reason ontherwise he would be in the training cycle again. (let alone the pilot would tell him to shove that speed where the sun don't shine :( )By the way: what is the maximum speed for the first flap setting in a ERJ-145?Bert Van Bulck

http://www.smartcock...Limitations.pdfVFE for flaps 9 is 250, max gear extend speed 250. I took this directly from an American Eagle First Officer, so unless you fly the ERJ-145 in real life, I would keep an open mind. It is very possible to slow from 240 @ a 5nm final to a stabalized approach by 500 AGL. Your "very good reason" is arrival spacing. The controllers in Chicago are the best in the world, they know the capabilities of every aircraft and wouldn't ask this of a 737. They do some crazy stuff at ORD and ATL, you would be surprised.Ben

Edited January 7, 201214 yr by bbain1187

 

Very interesting.. I never knew that. Years ago, at flight safety, they took us (a small class) over to the tracon facility to visit the controllers. Then years later, I took a date up to the Vny twr to show her what these guys guys do and last but not least, when Point Magu approach instructed me to land Camarillo and contact the tower on a landline for violating restricted airspace, but thats the closest I ever got to em.Learn somethin new every day.Thanks

You're welcome. It's what I'm here for.

http://www.smartcock...Limitations.pdfVFE for flaps 9 is 250, max gear extend speed 250. I took this directly from an American Eagle First Officer, so unless you fly the ERJ-145 in real life, I would keep an open mind. It is very possible to slow from 240 @ a 5nm final to a stabalized approach by 500 AGL. Your "very good reason" is arrival spacing. The controllers in Chicago are the best in the world, they know the capabilities of every aircraft and wouldn't ask this of a 737. They do some crazy stuff at ORD and ATL, you would be surprised.Ben

You are correct. I've been fortunate enough to spend some time at the Chicago Tracon over in Elgin and let me tell you, you'll find the best of the best. Those controllers don't sit through 2.5 years of training to make a mockery in their airspace.

Are you saying that specific LOA's in the real aviation world might ammend very specific IFR operating procedures stated in the AIM and I believe the FAR's, such as, when your expected or normaly switch frequencies to tower?In that case, wouldn't these LOA's be published, either in the plates, Airport Facility Directory or just stated in a NOTAM?JB

Yes. Also, have you heard of preferred routing? If you are flying into a controller airport, you switch to tower when approach tells you. Simple as that. It is not a guessing game. The only time that a controller Might not tell you to switch frequencies is when you are approaching the runway for takeoff, but that is not all that common.As I said earlier, facilities have pre-arranged coordination as far as when an arrival needs to go to tower, when departure can hand an aircraft off to the center, all of which is not pertinent to pilots flying in the airspace.It doesn't seem like you are extremely knowledgable when it comes to the ATC side of flying (Not trying to be disrespectful as many people do not know much about the inner working of the darkside), but there is much going on that even pilots don't know about. I don't come around here to show off, I just try to help fellow pilots and flight simmers out. Glad to see that there is another controller, well it seems like it, scandinavian13 around here to help out with topics like this.

I'm sorry sir but I doubt that you are talking about the same marker as we are.It's simply not common sense to control an aircraft at this speed on the glide untill it's 4 DME from treshhold. If a controller would ask a pilot to do so, he would have to have a very good reason ontherwise he would be in the training cycle again. (let alone the pilot would tell him to shove that speed where the sun don't shine :( )By the way: what is the maximum speed for the first flap setting in a ERJ-145?Bert Van Bulck

As a RW airline pilot in the US, it seems that you might not be speaking from actual experience. I've been given phrases such as "250 to the marker," "best forward speed until a 5 mile final," etc numerous times. In the aircraft I was flying at the time (CRJ-200), it was no big deal to do. I'm sure the ERJ-145 can handle it just fine as well. The larger RJ's need a little more room (just like the 737's do) because of the larger wing and relatively smaller spoilers, plus the decreased max gear extension speed.In addition to that, pilots VERY RARELY tell off controllers. Generally - unless someone is having a really bad day - there is a mutual respect for each other, and a desire to help out where possible.The "marker" I'm referring to is a slang term that generally refers to a 5nm final, the FAF, the OM, the LOM, etc.

You are correct. I've been fortunate enough to spend some time at the Chicago Tracon over in Elgin and let me tell you, you'll find the best of the best. Those controllers don't sit through 2.5 years of training to make a mockery in their airspace.Yes. Also, have you heard of preferred routing? If you are flying into a controller airport, you switch to tower when approach tells you. Simple as that. It is not a guessing game. The only time that a controller Might not tell you to switch frequencies is when you are approaching the runway for takeoff, but that is not all that common.As I said earlier, facilities have pre-arranged coordination as far as when an arrival needs to go to tower, when departure can hand an aircraft off to the center, all of which is not pertinent to pilots flying in the airspace.It doesn't seem like you are extremely knowledgable when it comes to the ATC side of flying (Not trying to be disrespectful as many people do not know much about the inner working of the darkside), but there is much going on that even pilots don't know about. I don't come around here to show off, I just try to help fellow pilots and flight simmers out. Glad to see that there is another controller, well it seems like it, scandinavian13 around here to help out with topics like this.

I got into VATSIM controlling to try to get a little bit of a grasp on the darkside. I have to agree there's a lot of very interesting information in JO 7110. Controlling is very much an art, one that I don't seem to have the skill for. I'll stick to the cockpit, and be thankful for those who can control.In other news... I did an approach into KLAX on FSX today in the PMDG 737-700. I did the ILS rwy 24R approach from the RIIVR IAF. After stepping down on the approach, I joined the glideslope about 20nm out, and let the autopilot "ride the slide" all the way down to about 400 feet above field elevation. I used speed intv to hold 240 kias until 10 DME of the I-OSS localizer (2 DME is the rwy threshold, so at 10 DME I was 8nm from the rwy threshold). Approaching 10 DME I set the flaps to 5. At 10 DME I disconnected the autothrottle, brought the thrust levers to idle, dropped the gear, and bugged a speed of 170 kias. I got "stuck" at 220 kias for a moment, so I deployed the spoilers which allowed the plane to continue slowing. At 195 kias I set flaps 15, and bugged my final approach speed. At 165 kias I stowed the spoilers and set flaps 30 (final flaps). As I approached my Vref+5 speed (129+5) I started pushing up the thrust levers to smooth arrive at 134 kias. I was stable and configured at 600 feet above field elevation. My flaps 30 selection occured at 900 feet above field elevation.My RW company requires us to be fully configured by 1000 feet above field elevation, and fully configured and stablized at final approach speed at 1000 feet above field elevation for instrument approaches and 500 feet above field elevation for visual approaches. Considering the conditions during my approach were 2sm vis and SCT010, it was technically an instrument approach. By my company's standards, my finals flaps were 100 feet too low, and fully configured and stabilzed on speed was 400 feet too low. Having said that, it seems that is basically possible for simming purposes from an 8nm final, and if I were doing a real instrument approach I would be configured and on speed by the time I hit the FAF (usually around 1500 feet above field elevation). I did it during instrument conditions simply because I had the opportunity (I've been flying the MD-11 on an Around the World tour for the past few days. This was my first flight back in the 737). Also, I didn't use the spoilers for a while. If I had deployed them at the 10 DME point, I'm sure I would've hit final flaps well before 1000 AFE, and might have been on speed by that time as well.This was done with wind reported as 220@4. So that's about 30 degrees off the nose, and not very strong. With a better headwind, I'm sure you could slow quicker as well. Shifting winds, and tailwinds would've probably made it more difficult. This is just one approach, and given just for information to those that want to hear it. In my experience, it seems possible to hold 240 kias until an 8nm final without too much trouble in the 737.

You are correct. I've been fortunate enough to spend some time at the Chicago Tracon over in Elgin and let me tell you, you'll find the best of the best. Those controllers don't sit through 2.5 years of training to make a mockery in their airspace.Yes. Also, have you heard of preferred routing? If you are flying into a controller airport, you switch to tower when approach tells you. Simple as that. It is not a guessing game. The only time that a controller Might not tell you to switch frequencies is when you are approaching the runway for takeoff, but that is not all that common.As I said earlier, facilities have pre-arranged coordination as far as when an arrival needs to go to tower, when departure can hand an aircraft off to the center, all of which is not pertinent to pilots flying in the airspace.It doesn't seem like you are extremely knowledgable when it comes to the ATC side of flying (Not trying to be disrespectful as many people do not know much about the inner working of the darkside), but there is much going on that even pilots don't know about. I don't come around here to show off, I just try to help fellow pilots and flight simmers out. Glad to see that there is another controller, well it seems like it, scandinavian13 around here to help out with topics like this.

;)My answer would be more verbose and your quote would be more selective if I was on my computer, but I'm on my iPhone.Regarding by knowledge about Inside ATC. You are absolutely correct, my knowledge there is limited to what is available from a pilots perspective. Interestingly enough for the ATP, you learn stuff as obscure as Hazmat laws, but don't learn more of the inner workings of the people whom you will be dealing with every flight.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkJB

;)My answer would be more verbose and your quote would be more selective if I was on my computer, but I'm on my iPhone.Regarding by knowledge about Inside ATC. You are absolutely correct, my knowledge there is limited to what is available from a pilots perspective. Interestingly enough for the ATP, you learn stuff as obscure as Hazmat laws, but don't learn more of the inner workings of the people whom you will be dealing with every flight.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkJB

Glad you took my response the way I wanted it to be taken! Glad we have people on here with real world experience. It let's me learn something new everyday.

250 to the marker is ridiculous. I have never instructed a pilot to do that...period. It is unsafe and downright stupid to instruct a plane to do that. If I have a small GA - I may say "keep your speed up as long as practical" or "maintain maximum forward airspeed as long as possible" - That would be a C172 or PA28. But 250 is ridiculous."180 to a 5 mile final" or the 5 mile fix "180 to XXXXX fix" is very common. "180 or greater" works better sometimes. On the expressway visual 31 approach at LGA we try to keep planes at "210 kts until DIALS" as long as we can.In the big picture of things ATC. Once, the first aircraft slows, they all slow. It is a huge domino affect. Therefore, we try to keep the whole line fast as long as possible. And we try to pick back up the speeds if we can. If my final is doing 160 at one point, then I will build a little extra room from the last plane doing 160 and have the next one do 180 with a little room to collapse on the final.When the final slows you start losing at the game, and therefore one of the feeds might have to hold. If I have a plane doing 160 and they start slowing. My next plane may have to go back to "final approach speed" to maintain spacing. If I have to reduce that plane to "final approach speed" then I will try to build more room with the next plane - and have that plane go slightly faster then the first one.Oh - one of the number one rules running the final at LGA - Never ever tell a DH8 to "reduce to final approach speed". 150 or slower works well with a DH8.Questions? Clear as mud?Eric - RW New York TRACON LaGuardia Sector (LGA) Air Traffic Controller

Edited January 8, 201214 yr by nytracon

250 to the marker is ridiculous. I have never instructed a pilot to do that...period. It is unsafe and downright stupid to instruct a plane to do that. If I have a small GA - I may say "keep your speed up as long as practical" or "maintain maximum forward airspeed as long as possible" - That would be a C172 or PA28. But 250 is ridiculous."180 to a 5 mile final" or the 5 mile fix "180 to XXXXX fix" is very common. "180 or greater" works better sometimes. On the expressway visual 31 approach at LGA we try to keep planes at "210 kts until DIALS" as long as we can.In the big picture of things ATC. Once, the first aircraft slows, they all slow. It is a huge domino affect. Therefore, we try to keep the whole line fast as long as possible. And we try to pick back up the speeds if we can. If my final is doing 160 at one point, then I will build a little extra room from the last plane doing 160 and have the next one do 180 with a little room to collapse on the final.When the final slows you start losing at the game, and therefore one of the feeds might have to hold. If I have a plane doing 160 and they start slowing. My next plane may have to go back to "final approach speed" to maintain spacing. If I have to reduce that plane to "final approach speed" then I will try to build more room with the next plane - and have that plane go slightly faster then the first one.Oh - one of the number one rules running the final at LGA - Never ever tell a DH8 to "reduce to final approach speed". 150 or slower works well with a DH8.Questions? Clear as mud?Eric - RW New York TRACON LaGuardia Sector (LGA) Air Traffic Controller

I love buzzing CITI stadium on the Expressway Visual, and I don't really let the ground stops and ground congestion bother me too much, but the tight spacing between landing aircraft and departing aircraft on intersecting runways is the reason I do everything I can to bid to stay away from LGA. 250 to the marker into LGA. Yeah, you might actually hear me laughing while I tell you to give us some other option. Not to mention I've only done the ILS rwy 4 and the whatever straight in rwy 22 once each. Every other time I've been in there has been to rwy 31, and we are fully configured and about final approach speed plus 10 by the time we hit DIALS. Into ATL, into small airports with no traffic (ground or air)... ridiculous and unsafe are fairly extreme words to be using. I wouldn't do it if it were unsafe. You have some of the most unique airspace and airspace constraints around. Other places have nothing but wide open spaces and long finals. When traffic is down, speed is up and short approaches are available.

A great thread!Thanks to all, both pro's and otherwise, for helping me to understand (a tiny, weensie little bit :( )

I love buzzing CITI stadium on the Expressway Visual, and I don't really let the ground stops and ground congestion bother me too much, but the tight spacing between landing aircraft and departing aircraft on intersecting runways is the reason I do everything I can to bid to stay away from LGA. 250 to the marker into LGA. Yeah, you might actually hear me laughing while I tell you to give us some other option. Not to mention I've only done the ILS rwy 4 and the whatever straight in rwy 22 once each. Every other time I've been in there has been to rwy 31, and we are fully configured and about final approach speed plus 10 by the time we hit DIALS. Into ATL, into small airports with no traffic (ground or air)... ridiculous and unsafe are fairly extreme words to be using. I wouldn't do it if it were unsafe. You have some of the most unique airspace and airspace constraints around. Other places have nothing but wide open spaces and long finals. When traffic is down, speed is up and short approaches are available.

The ridiculousness is derived from a legal aspect. I really would have a hard time in court justifying a 250kt to the marker instruction to a plane if they end up off the runway.

ultimately, would not be the commander responsible, with that he a) accepted :( did not go around if unstable and not on Vapp?

Not in a lawsuit happy world. A controller's actions have very legal consequences.

The ridiculousness is derived from a legal aspect. I really would have a hard time in court justifying a 250kt to the marker instruction to a plane if they end up off the runway.

ultimately, would not be the commander responsible, with that he a) accepted :( did not go around if unstable and not on Vapp?

I cannot speak for any other pilot, nor any other company. I only speak for what I do in my cockpit with reference to my company procedures.Ultimately FAR 91.5 places the responsibility to not accept something that isn't safe on the shoulders of the PIC. Putting that aside. My company requirements for a visual approach are final flaps by 1000 feet AFE, and fully configured on speed by 500 feet AFE. If those requirements are not met, or if the approach deteriorates after 500 feet, a go around is mandatory. If the PIC elects to continue the approach and landing, it's on his shoulders. So assuming that the pilots are following that guidance, running off the end because of holding extra speed longer into the approach shouldn't be in the realm of controller responsibility. Having said that, I'm well aware of the mentality the FAA tends to use when an incident/accident occurs, espicially if it makes the news. It's more than evident in the aviation news out of the NYC area over the past few years (kid on LGA local, controller on cell shortly after clearing trafffic for departure, etc). I can't say I blame you for covering your... well, self. We've been doing it a lot more lately too. If you go way back in this thread you should see where I mentioned that we haven't been hearing it, and haven't been doing it lately.Also worth mentioning... no way am I playing with speed like that on final into LGA. 6000 foot runways with the *beautiful, blue* waters of Flushing Bay off the end. I think I'll stick to normal profiles. :-P

250 to the marker is ridiculous. I have never instructed a pilot to do that...period. It is unsafe and downright stupid to instruct a plane to do that. If I have a small GA - I may say "keep your speed up as long as practical" or "maintain maximum forward airspeed as long as possible" - That would be a C172 or PA28. But 250 is ridiculous.

Finally some real world common sense here! In 42 years of flying I have never been asked, heard any other plane asked, or even heard of a "250kt to the FAF' until this thread. It may have happened but it sure as hell is the exception and there would have had to be extenuating circumstances, like maybe the plane was on fire :-)