Isn't there a little box that says tick here if you would like to be involved in the beta upgrades.

That tick box is a bit of a joke. Are you never going to apply the enhancements as they come along? Every update to a piece of software is an "upgrade", at least it's supposed to be. This was not a "Beta Upgrade", more like a downgrade, that should have been fixed within 12 hours. If the amount of disgruntled users is any indication of what they think about it. He botched up on Beta 8, and now on 10, that's fine, it happens, but fix it asap or put in some mechanism that allows a user to revert back. And, make clear within reason, everything that was done in the current Beta for release, so the end user, us "PAYING CUSTOMERS" can decide if we want to update or not. There was only 2 things mentioned in the release notes, neither one I really care about, so I went ahead and applied the update. Well, there sure was a lot more going on than the 2 things that were mentioned. Why was nothing said about the overhaul to the clouds?? I think we all know why. What would happen if we all refused to apply the updates, think about it. He relies on us to help him make this system better, the least he could do is be upfront with us.To further your thought, which I do understand, if the Beta 10 release notes mentioned anything about totally re-doing the cloud system and there may be some unwanted effects, many of us may not have applied the Beta. Was this in the release notes, no, so they got what they wanted, a bunch of paying guinea pigs. Why not, mess with the system, and when it's right, release it. We all know that the "double layer clouds", and the "mashed potatoes" didn't only appear when us beta testers got our hands on it. So why was it released in the first place? I don't care if I have to wait a month for updates, as long as when there released, there worthy of being released, this last update was not.Just think of this for a moment. Where would XPlane be without it's beta testing community, probably not very far along. The problem is, beta testing is not normally subjected to paying customers. You submit a request if you want to be part of a Beta program, and it doesn't cost you anything, other than your time. When you pay for something you expect it to be, lets say, a little more polished. Again, I do understand the way Xplane works. It's never really out of the "Beta" stage, that's ok. I want to see it get better, a lot better. But, when actions or decisions are made that are a step backwards, AND, I have paid my money upfront, I expect things to be corrected immediately (within reason). Days later, for something that has obviously not been well received, is too long. Put it back the way it was, "Beta 11", and then he can take as long as he likes to tinker with his baby, but not at my expense, which he has done.Ok, I'm now done with this, I've said what I have to say. Time to go fly, the skies are clear.Glen

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by Muskoka

One can go back. Rerun tthe download without the beta box being checked, and the download will revert back to the former release. I don't know how long they keep the former release on the server, but I have done it a couple of times.

I don't know why everyone is getting so stressed about it. It's an ongoing cycle and will be fixed eventually (and my bet is very soon).

..so don't just rant around here, in other forums you would be called a troll...

Ask me if I care what you think ! The ISSUE is not you or me. It's the product, the company, it's head and their management of of the ISSUE.Where is the Roadmap and Associated Timeline for X-plane v10 ? If, as you say, Laminar is working on that, HAVE THEY MADE ANY PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT OR SENT EMAILS TO THE CURRENT CLIENTELE ?Laminar should atleast have the decency to admit their product's inadequacy / shortcomings and tell it's clientele what the current situation is on a weekly bases, if not daily, including when the issues will be addressed, IN FULL !SPECIFICS - ADDRESSED BY A LAMINAR DESIGNATED SPOKESMAN - NOT "we're working on it" and/or then hide behind the updates saying it will / may be addressed in a future beta/update. No loose, unclear or fuzzy talk - SPECIFICS !When the issues identified have been adequately addressed, they should also make a public statement that this is how the product should have been released in the first place and offer a public apology for putting unsuspecting users thru the pain of beta testing. In a normal software offering it would be called a fiasco, gross mis-management and mis-handling. For Laminar, it's business as usual and we, the users, give them a pass because it's a much smaller outfit !One would expect AT THE VERY LEAST, that X-plane v10 would match X-plane v9 in scope, detail and according to their own admission, to an extent, performance, if not exceed v9 in all respects.Is that true today ? The answer is a clear and definite NO !

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by m_av

One can go back. Rerun tthe download without the beta box being checked, and the download will revert back to the former release. I don't know how long they keep the former release on the server, but I have done it a couple of times.

Thanks Don, at least you have something constructive to add. I tried with the box ticked and unticked, made no difference. Both cases said I had the most up to date version.Glen

I wasn't sure if they kept it on for any length of time. It did save me once though, of course that was for the infamous beta 8 LOL. I imagine that they are reluctnt to put up a definite timeline because they may not make it, and when they do, there is even more of an outcry. Oc course I don't know any mor, and probably much less than anyone els, but that is my take on it.If the mountain won't come to Mohammad, well we know the rest. :(

Some of the beta updates are being pushed through without opting into the beta, according to a blog entry, IIRC. Some updates will go out to all users, regardless of the beta opt-in as Austin or crew feel it is an important update even though it is a beta update.

Where is the Roadmap and Associated Timeline for X-plane v10 ?

You obviously don't know much about software development on such a scale.There is no timeline that hold's till the ink is dry!So why should they publish a timeline when everyone knows, that it is not valid.They are deep in its beta stage. Every Blog entry proves this, as clearly as the fact that they disabled the betaversion check fo4r updates at this time.They hope that every Beta will be better than the previous version.As we so after Beta 7 this is not allways true. Sometimes you fix something in the background but this small change has severe consequences in other parts of the program. There is np way to avoid such things except testing, testing and testing.I think they will now make a feature freeze for 10.3 and try to reach a more or less stable version 10.3 and to start with a 10.4 beta branch .They are in dire need of a beta branch with a stable branch in the background.

where's the need for such a discussion? beta 10 is a major failure and we all know it.point. exclamation mark. end of debate.

where's the need for such a discussion? beta 10 is a major failure and we all know it.

We can't really judge this from the outside. The cloud problem might be rather simple. We don't know it.They simply rushed the last few betas too much.

where else than in my sweet little home behind my yoke do I need to be in order to evaluate that X-Plane 10 re-introduced CTDs and introduced some unknown things labeled as clouds? :D c'mon guys. We are early Beta and OF COURSE what Ben and Austin do is - not only, but also - doomed to be "trial and error" in parts.Beta 10 = error.

You obviously don't know much about software development on such a scale.

This isn't about you or me.At the very least, Laminar owes it's customers an explanation and a reasonable timeline on when they expect to correct the problems THEY CREATED.Let's be perfectly clear; let's give credit where it's due. This isn't the customers' fault - IT IS CLEARLY LAMINAR'S !

please, relax a little bit. i will not comment on everything you wrote. In fact, there might be situations in life where i feel similar as you do now and claim a right or something. But not in regard to our hobby, not about laminar or the community here. I enjoy following ben's & others blogs, there open communication style and the steadily progress x-plane makes.I agree, beta 10 was not good - just imagine it is fixed tomorrow with Beta 11. The only thing that stays is a guy called m_av who has no respect for the people behind this and their community.Regards,Heiko

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by urthgental

where's the need for such a discussion? beta 10 is a major failure and we all know it.

Not necessarily. It does seem to have taken a performance hit, but it depends on why it took that performance hit. For instance, if it's slower because there's more debugging code to help them nail down some problems then we could hardly call it a failure. But, no, everybody has to assume the worst and act like nobody at Laminar has any idea how to design software.

Edited January 9, 201214 yr by Mountain Man

MM, my main argument is: beta 11 is around the corner, let's get over disappointing beta 10. There is no reason to share arguments about that one. Performance, clouds, CTD - only to name 3 of the issues. C'mon, stay real :)