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Haswell reviews are out. As 'bad' overclocker as IvyBridge

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That's haswell reviews out.

On regular cooling it seems to manage around 4.5GHz. So similar to IvyBridge.

 

Anandtech managed 4.7GHz on their engineering sample of i7 4770K.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/3

 

Sweclockers mannaged only 4.4GHz on their retail sample i7 4770K and 4.6GHz on their engineering sample of i5 4670K

http://www.sweclockers.com/recension/17016-intel-core-i7-4770k-och-i5-4670k-haswell/26#pagehead

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Quite disappointing...

 

"After talking with several other testers, it seems without doubt that the specimens that end up in stores overclock worse than the engineering samples circulating right now."

 

"This time, we had to tune the voltage further to the processor would respond and at 1.31 volts did it actually become a little sweaty even for our watercooling solution."

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Hmmmm....Not what we wanted to hear but let's see what the user feedback etc is.

 

I for one will be keen to see what Westman finds when he receives his. I know his cooling is somewhat extreme but I always find his results interesting.

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Read through quickly the review at Guru3d and noticed the comment that Haswell is built in the same manner as Ivy, with respects to the underlid cooling material.

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From TomsHardware

http://m.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-review,3521-10.html

 

"Our first-hand information involves a high double-digit number of processors, including samples and final shipping boxed CPUs. Sort testing was limited to 1.2 V to keep heat manageable. Ring/cache ratios are pegged at 3.9 GHz, with the memory controller operating at 1,333 MT/s. Of the chips available for sorting, only one is stable at 4.6 GHz under full load. A few are capable of operating at 4.5 GHz. More run stably at 4.4 GHz. Most are solid at 4.3 GHz and down. As you stretch above a 1,600 MT/s memory data rate or a ring ratio to match your highest single-core Turbo Boost ratio (which helps maximize performance), your top stable core frequency tends to drop."

 

So it seems like the integrated voltage regulators make the chip run a lot hotter, and thus restricting maximum overclocking. Those who upgraded to 2500K/2600K two years ago seems to get a long life out of their system... That's the last big jump in performance we had. This seems to be another very small increment when we factor in overclocking. It might be smaller than Sandy to Ivy as the faster RAM with Ivy made up for the lower overclock. (unless you have a proper water cooling loop or a phasechanger)

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I for one will be keen to see what Westman finds when he receives his. I know his cooling is somewhat extreme but I always find his results interesting.

Agreed, If he is anything at all he is meticulous in wringing out every Mhz of performance and has integrity in reporting it. I should add, that's a common trait here.

 

 

the review at Guru3d and noticed the comment that Haswell is built in the same manner as Ivy, with respects to the underlid cooling material.

This still puzzles me. I know, the what, at least with IB, but the why escapes me. If Intel has an engineering reason, I can't fathom it. If it is a marketing reason, I can't figure that out either.

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Hardocp reported similar. Needless to say, Haswell is a "skip" for me.

 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

 

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http://m.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-review,3521-19.html

 

Nope, keeping my hairy legs.

 

Amazingly a 4.7-5.0 overclock on a 2600K would probably win practically any of the benchmarks run. Sure, if the others were overclocked then they'd win too. However, that is not the point.

 

At 4.8 to 4.9 Ghz my 2700K is cool, stable, running naturally and not yet working up a sweat. The 3770K or the 4700K would need to max out (4.4 to 4.5) with real heat issues to keep pace.

 

For years now, dollar for dollar, performance for performance, time for time, Sandy has proven that it has legs, and fast ones to boot.

 

Intel really did it right with Sandy Bridge 2500K, 2600K and 2700K CPUs to such an extent, that it is difficult for them to pull away. I sure hope that there is something up Intel's Haswell sleeve besides an elbow!

 

Kind regards,

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Bummer - seems like the 5ghz CPU is becoming major limitation.  I've lost my faith in technology LOL.

 

Cheers

jja

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This is probably my longest run without an upgrade. I have an I7 2600K with a GTX480. I'm feeling good about the CPU. I've been tempted to upgrade my video card but I've been told that I wouldn't see a huge performance boost going to say a 680. I guess I'll keep my wallet in my pocket for a while longer.

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Kind of makes me wish I had just gotten a SB all those years ago. However Haswell doesn't look too bad. The IPC impvrovements over IB and SB are enough to compensate for the lower clock speeds, but not much more. It's definitely time to retire my AMD system, and going with Haswell seems like the best choice at this time.

 

I think people are just spoiled with the massive overclocks that were going on for a while. If you look at all CPUs throughout history, a ~25% overclock is very, very good. Most CPUs I've owned would only overclock ~10% (in particular, my 900 MHz Athlon would only do 1 GHz stable, and my 2.2 GHz Athlon64 maxed out at 2.3 GHz..). My current Phenom II is the best overclocker I've ever owned, and it's only a ~16% overclock.

 

 

Bummer - seems like the 5ghz CPU is becoming major limitation.  I've lost my faith in technology LOL.

 

Cheers

jja

 

FSX is the limitation. No other simulation or game is as completely and utterly dependent on CPU clock rates as the old FSX graphics engine. Other games do just fine on 3 GHz CPUs as long as you have a decent video card. GPUs have evolved tremendously since 2006. CPUs, not so much after Core 2.

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One of my friends has actually managed to overclock his Ivy Bridge to 5.6 Ghz stably with a corsair H80i water cooler running maxed out. He's running at 4ghz now since he doesn't play FSX and does not need the speed, however it goes to show that you don't need a liquid nitrogen cooler to OC to high speeds with the Ivy. You just need to manage the voltage well and it should be all good. He was getting temps of 80-90 degrees Celsius on full load, which is admittedly high for any CPU, but not bad at 5.6.

I run my Ivy at 4.4 ghz and I am very happy with the performance I get in FSX. I don't see why people feel the need to go any higher, and in turn give their chip a shorter life. If I were to go higher I really wouldn't go any higher than 4.8ghz, since any performance changes past that are marginal

In this day and age anyone who gets a new computer for FSX should be getting a 3rd party water cooler (Corsair is a great brand). If you are serious about overclocking then air cooling isn't the way to go.

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My 2700K is resting solidly at 5.28GHz.  Had a lot of issues with crashes without BSOD or faults.  Found a slow-running bearings-blown-out cooling fan on my HD6870 card in my CrossFire setup and was just smokin' hot.  Running on a single card until my XFX warranty replacement returns.

 

2600K/2700K cannot be beat by anything out there unless perhaps you could run TWO of them on a server board...  My opinion.

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All the reviews I read so far say the same thing.....  not worth the upgrade for Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge owners.  That's disappointing but now I know.  I will wait for the next major upgrade out of Intel. 

 

Best regards,

Jim

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not worth the upgrade for Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge owners. That's disappointing but now I know.

-as opposed to the speculation of super chip status with 7-8Ghz and massive increase in performance per Ghz. What a difference between what was hoped for vs what apparently will be delivered. Still it's better than no improvement whatsoever...or is it?

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This is probably my longest run without an upgrade. I have an I7 2600K with a GTX480. I'm feeling good about the CPU. I've been tempted to upgrade my video card but I've been told that I wouldn't see a huge performance boost going to say a 680. I guess I'll keep my wallet in my pocket for a while longer.

 

Yeah, I'm on an even older one processor wise (i7 860 @ 4.0 with a GTX570)  and I still really don't see a reason to upgrade here. I was thinking about getting a new system later this summer but I might just get a new GPU (probably the 770) and some more RAM now after reading the Haswell reviews that came out today. Unfortunately I think we're starting to hit a fundamental wall with the speed of these things - you can only push electrons through these circuits so fast...

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While I understand that Haswell did not need a big performance increase because of smaller demand nowadays, but it's too bad that they didn't fix the bad overclockability of Ivy Bridge. It looks as if they actually want to hinder overclocking. Let's hope Broadwell does better.

 

On a positive note, this might give AMD some breathing room to try and make their CPUs more competitive. Steamroller should come out sometime in 2013.

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 The 3770K or the 4700K would need to max out (4.4 to 4.5) with real heat issues to keep pace.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Well no, not at all in respect of the 3700k.

 

With a Noctua NH-D14, mine runs very cool at 4.5GHz. So no, no heat issues at 4.5.

 

It's above 4.6, or above about 1.34 volts that mine hits the thermal brick wall and temps shoot up.

 

 

This still puzzles me. I know, the what, at least with IB, but the why escapes me. If Intel has an engineering reason, I can't fathom it. If it is a marketing reason, I can't figure that out either.

 

It may well be that slapping a chunk of TIM under the IHS, is cheaper than going to the trouble of soldering. Money is perhaps the motivator.

In this day and age anyone who gets a new computer for FSX should be getting a 3rd party water cooler (Corsair is a great brand). If you are serious about overclocking then air cooling isn't the way to go.

 

Sorry to disagree, but that's not true at all.

 

Those of us with an NH-D14, will tell you unequivocally that it cools beautifully. As well, or almost as well as the all-in-one water solutions, especially when you consider fan noise.

 

And in fact, the D14 also matches the latest Corsair H110.

 

The NH-D14 runs my Ivy Bridge in the 50's in FSX. That's at 4.5 GHz.

 

And more importantly, the D14 is very, very quiet. Many of the all-in-one solutions are noisy.

 

Don't write off air cooling just yet.

 

 

2600K/2700K cannot be beat by anything out there unless perhaps you could run TWO of them on a server board...  My opinion.

 

I disagree.

 

You are forgetting that Ivy Bridge is a faster architecture. You are also forgetting that Ivy Bridge can be de-lidded and pushed as high as 2600K/2700K. And when you do that, the superior Ivy Bridge architecture renders it faster.

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Looks like we will have to wait for someone to delid and see what kind of performance they can get out of it.  If delidding gets you 5Ghz then it may be worth it if you have steady hands and nerves!

 

By the way my 2500K runs at 4.9 on the D14 with very acceptable temps. 

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-as opposed to the speculation of super chip status with 7-8Ghz and massive increase in performance per Ghz. What a difference between what was hoped for vs what apparently will be delivered. Still it's better than no improvement whatsoever...or is it?

Hi Stephen!  I never did think much of the 7-8GHz overclocking but I was hoping for an easy 5GHz overclocking.  That may be still possible and I'll wait and see what further reviews have to offer.  I saw that most of the reviews were done quickly and with little or no overclocking and I may change my mind if they can be easily overclocked around 5GHz and 5.4GHz. 

 

I saw too that Intel didn't listen to those who removed the Integrated Heat Spreader (de-lidding procedure) from the cpu (as shown in the pinned topic here in this forum).  It still has it in the Haswell products.... 

 

Best regards,

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

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The below is quoted from Page 6 of the Hardocp review, these are Asus OC tests and their findings.  One in ten chance of getting a CPU that will hit 4.8GHz and be stable.

 

It seems that out of the box a high overclock (close to 5.0GHz) on air with Haswell is a bust.  They also state that the higher your OC the lower your memory speed may have to be.  So whats the use of 2400HMz memory if you can only run it at 1600MHz!

____________________________________________________________________

Luck of the Draw?

From all the feedback that I am getting through motherboard makers about Haswell overclocking, the basic thread at this time in terms of getting "high overclocks" seems to be, "You need to have a good CPU." ASUS has tested a couple hundred Haswell processors at this time and this is ASUS’ specific feedback from that overclock testing.

 

  • 70% of CPUs can clock to 4.5GHz

     
  • 30% of CPUs can clock to 4.6GHz

     
  • 20% of CPUs can clock to 4.7GHz

     
  • 10% of CPUs can to 4.8GHz

     

    Overall you will find most CPUs capable of reaching 44x to 45x with varying levels of voltage.

 

These ASUS results were obtained with sealed water cooling systems that are comparable to a Corsair H80/H100 configuration or extremely efficient air cooling with 120mm push/pull fans while applying a maximum core voltage of 1.275v under full thread load conditions.

 

Obviously it is very early in terms of Haswell retail processor production, and we are still not sure what we will see in terms of i7-4770K retail purchased Haswell overclocking headroom. We will be buying a couple of Core i7-4770K processors this weekend and see what comes out of that. Going on the above information, it would seem that getting a 4.8GHz-worthy Haswell sample will be about a one in ten shot with "normal" sealed water cooling systems.

 

Overclocking the Haswell i7-4770K processor that was sampled to HardOCP directly from Intel was extremely simple using two ASUS Z87 series motherboards and we will describe on that on the following pages. From the information above we can assume that we got a "golden" sample directly from Intel, or were extremely lucky when it came to the luck of the draw.

All about the Cooling

As most of you reading this have already guessed, overclocking Haswell is going to be very dependent on your cooling system. Many of you that have put off water cooling in the past are very likely to be about to take the plunge. If you are going to stick with air cooling, you will likely need a very efficient system. ASUS went as far as to make cooler recommendations based on its overclock testing, which at this time I have to consider it the most informed opinion. Given the wide variety of voltages ASUS has seen at various clock speeds, it made some recommendations based on CPU core voltage needs.

 

For voltages up to 1.250-1.265 a Cooling solution meeting a minimum of a Corsair H80i is advised, superior performance can be offered by moving to the H90 or higher performing dual fan closed loop solutions.

 

For voltages up to 1.275-1.300 a cooling solution meeting a minimum of a Corsair H100i is advised.

 

 

For voltages up to or greater than 1.300v a high performance water cooling system is recommended. Minimum recommendation would be a unit such as Koolance EX2-755.

 

For voltages up to or greater than 1.350 a high performance water cooling system is recommended. Minimum recommendation would be a unit such as a Koolance EX2-1055.

 

Keep in mind these recommendations are based on controlling peak temperatures and loads under synthetic stress applications. For nominal real world usage load temperatures will be considerably under that of stress tests.

The last paragraph above is very interesting about synthetic stress applications and I will be addressing this more on the next page.

 

To put it in a nutshell, ASUS’ experience was that any core voltage over 1.2v accompanied by heavy workloads puts the enthusiast into water cooling territory and ASUS has experienced certain 4770K sample CPUs that have required 1.2v vCore just to hit 4.3GHz. From what we have seen, "high end" overclocking will require a good water cooling system. Surely there will be some exceptions to the rule, but I would not expect to be part of that crowd.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

From the same article, Page 6 regarding memory speed.

 

Your specific processor may be capable of doing 4.8GHz, but only with a memory clock speed of 1600MHz, or luck of the draw might allow you to do 2400MHz with a 4.8GHz CPU clock.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Link to the Hardocp article

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/01/intel_haswell_i74770k_ipc_overclocking_review/6#.UatFUZyboxI

 

It looks like I will be skipping Haswell like I skipped IB.  I guess I will wait and see what IB-E does!

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He was getting temps of 80-90 degrees Celsius on full load, which is admittedly high for any CPU, but not bad at 5.6.

 

Hmm, how long would a chip last with temps like that? Reason I'm asking is because I'm so terrible at overclocking and I have the same temps on load with a 4.5Ghz overclock..how do I get lower temps..?

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Hmm, how long would a chip last with temps like that? Reason I'm asking is because I'm so terrible at overclocking and I have the same temps on load with a 4.5Ghz overclock..how do I get lower temps..?

 

Better cooling, lower CPU voltage.  If you can not lower your CPU voltage and be stable then better cooling.  Also make sure that the case you have has great airflow.  Poor airflow in a case can greatly affect your temps.  Dust build up in your case, on your PCB's and on your HSF (or radiator if you are on water) can also greatly affect temps.

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Better cooling, lower CPU voltage. If you can not lower your CPU voltage and be stable then better cooling

 

Thanks for your suggestions, I couldn't lower the volts without getting unstable, so I guess I have to look into better cooling solutions. I haven't de'lidded the chip yet as I'm afraid to screw things up but maybe I have to look into that too...

 

Sorry for derailing the thread....back to the haswell ^_^

 

 

Edit: Currently have the Corsair H60 Hydro series, would upgrading too Corsair H100i help?

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I disagree.

 

You are forgetting that Ivy Bridge is a faster architecture. You are also forgetting that Ivy Bridge can be de-lidded and pushed as high as 2600K/2700K. And when you do that, the superior Ivy Bridge architecture renders it faster.

 

A buddy of mine likes to try to out-do everything I do with my computers.  He de-lidded his IB 3770K CPU and cranked up the speed to match mine.  At 5.15GHz he melted part of the ZIF socket on his mobo.  Still has too much heat.  2600K/2700K still rocks.  No argument about architecture efficiency, the IB is improved over SB.  But I don't have to dink with my CPU to make it run very VERY fast.

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