Too true. 

 

I have to say I was surprised that already we're up to ten pages of useless speculation.

 

Such tragedies always bring out the bar stool experts and rubberneckers...

 

 

 

Ok everybody....

 

 

Nobody is allowed to have a opinion or talk about it unless you can prove 10000 plus hours in type,  a degree in aeronautical engineering and a doctorate in physics 

My thoughts exactly.  If true, it matches my opinion of the crew of the Colgan Air Dash-400 which crashed because the captain did the complete opposite of what he was taught (or probably not taught) about basic stall recovery.  Maybe the PIC froze up when confronted with the stall, could it be argued that there is a difference between real life and simulator practice?   Probably not, since he was a seasoned pilot with 17 years experience.   I think either the pilot was having a brain freeze or medical condition that caused his attention to wander off while the speed was decaying in the final seconds of the approach, or the pilots were aware that they needed to go around and increase thrust earlier than what is reported so far, but mechanical issues prevented such action and they were too busy frantically fighting with the controls to make verbal statements that they were in fact trying to recover earlier than the records state.   I've always thought, what would happen if the PIC had a stroke during a crucial moment, and the copilot does not notice or is too slow to react?

 

Ronan and Bryan York's statements on the culture differences between this Korean crew and crews from the Western world are very relevant and could explain the delayed reaction to the deteriorating situation.   This incident sure smacks of the lack of CRM and rusty hand flying skills that are probably endemic of Asian carriers.  It's hard to believe such deep rooted psychological or cultural norms are still embedded in the mindset of these foreign crews, after all the history of past accidents attributed to poor CRM.   When lives are on the line, and hundreds of millions of dollars in aircraft value and the economic value provided by the passengers are at stake, there is no room for such silly cultural quirks.  

it makes me sick to think that whenever there is a pilot error accident some airlines get away with it pretty easily. i am personally tired of hearing of pilot error as the ultimate cause of any accident, and then having such airlines continue their operations without any penalty. we have all heard rumors about airlines (especially in asia) that seek to maximize profits in the short term and undermine the importance of having well trained and qualified crews at the pointy end of the plane. if this comes out to be a pilot error i think it is time for the regulators to enforce some rules upon the airlines about the quality of training and recruitment and have them pay a very high stake if they don't comply.

Pilot error should not be immediately attributed to poor training. Pilots are human and make errors. Some airlines will propose autoland/autopilot-only policies (to immediate union protests) as methods of reducing human error–related accidents, and there is an undeniable trend towards fully automated commercial aviation, because pilots will make errors regardless of how much high-quality training they receive. 

 

Also, please try to keep cultural perspective in mind. Asiana is an excellent airline, and its training procedures are probably at least acceptable. Even if they are not, it is unlikely that Asiana purposely "doesn't comply" and takes dangerous short cuts: being immersed in a certain culture can prevent one from seeing the wrong in his or her actions that people of other cultures may see. To me, labeling another culture's elements as "silly cultural quirks" is ignorant and rude. We need more information about Asiana's safety and training records before we can definitively villainize it. 

Wow, ac indeed "flipped over", according to CNN video. It's amazing that airframe integrity survived that. I guess there would be much more casualties if airframe snapped at 2-3 places during that "flip".

 

 

After watching that impact video I am stunned only two died in this.  Had you shown me that without me knowing the story I would guess a lot worse outcome.  777 is a strong plane.

Ok everybody....

 

 

Nobody is allowed to have a opinion or talk about it unless you can prove 10000 plus hours in type,  a degree in aeronautical engineering and a doctorate in physics 

I've a first class honours degree in Applied Engineering and 19,990 hours total time, does that count?  :mellow:

 

In all seriousness though, as I said before, coming up with possible causes and solutions for them is a great way to learn and prepare for the future and should not be discouraged.

 

Regards,

Ró.

I've a first class honours degree in Applied Engineering and 19,990 hours total time, does that count? :mellow:

 

In all seriousness though, as I said before, coming up with possible causes and solutions for them is a great way to learn and prepare for the future and should not be discouraged.

 

Regards,

Ró.

Yes in my opinion it counts because 19,900 hours is roughly 19,900 more hours than I have!

 

I agree that accidents like this should be studied and discussed, even by people not in the industry like myself. It's a good way to learn. I don't get why when it comes to airplanes nobody is allowed to have a opinion.  Messageboards and the world in general would be a really boring place with very narrow views if people could only comment and discuss stuff that they were professionally involved in.

 

Can't discuss a major event involving a plane unless your a pilot.

 

Can't discuss the superbowl unless you played in the NFL.

 

Can't discuss a shooting unless your a convicted murderer or police officer.

 

I am exaggerating now but seriously where does it end?

A question for those who know U.S. legal system: supposing that's a case of bad airmanship (let's say, pilots staying behind the aircraft, slow reaction times), will the pilots face criminal charges according to U.S. laws?

A question for those who know U.S. legal system: supposing that's a case of bad airmanship (let's say, pilots staying behind the aircraft, slow reaction times), will the pilots face criminal charges according to U.S. laws?

 

I am not a lawyer so this is just a layman's opinion ( or useless speculation as many would say)  but I have never heard of a pilot in the US being charged before so I doubt it. 

Very unlikely there would be charges - we only punish acts where there is criminal intent, or in some cases, where a person acts recklessly with deliberate disregard for the consequences of their actions. Accidents and mistakes, tragic though they may be, absent the mental culpability necessary for a criminal act are not appropriate to subject one to loss of liberty.

Again PLEASE READ CAREFULLY MY POST, I never claimed to fully believe my own and my "groups" findings to be anything conclusive, it is speculation based data that is publicly available, which as I knew before anyone needed to point it out has a margin of error that the FDR and precision airport instrumentation will provide to the NTSB who in my opinion are the some of the best air crash investigators in the world hands down.

 

You have to admit the data "captured" by flightaware does raise an eyebrow or two, even a moderator saw this and it caught his attention. I also saw the episode of ACI where the 777 inbound into Heathrow had ice in their fuel lines, I do not think this is the case as other extrapolated. All the "findings" that I have made again which are NOT CONCLUSIVE are nothing short of an educated guess.

This link is to the video of the crash, and there is also a recreation animation.
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/07/07/vo-plane-sf-plane-crash-on-cam.courtesy-fred-hayes.html

I agree that accidents like this should be studied and discussed, even by people not in the industry like myself. It's a good way to learn. I don't get why when it comes to airplanes nobody is allowed to have a opinion.  

I am exaggerating now but seriously where does it end?

While I support collaborative speculation, one should at least be somewhat knowledgeable about the topic in order to maintain a good discussion. For example, the following CNN comment is not very valuable to the discussion:

"If I had to speculate, it sounds like the instrument readings were off. Too many people these days think that turning off the cell phones is not necessary and usually try to start them in advance because they start working right around the time the plane makes the final approach. It is infuriating, but people don't say anything because they are usually young children traveling with their parents who seem to not care."

 

 

I agree that accidents like this should be studied and discussed, even by people not in the industry like myself. It's a good way to learn. I don't get why when it comes to airplanes nobody is allowed to have a opinion.  Messageboards and the world in general would be a really boring place with very narrow views if people could only comment and discuss stuff that they were professionally involved in.

 

Mike I agree, I'm hopping in the simulator first thing tomo morning working on finishing up my C-130 type rating and scenarios like these, even if some is just conjecture, force you to put yourself in the same position and analyze the decisions you are making in the cockpit which regardless of the outcome of another event is a step towards a safer flying environment and better airmanship.  I've only got a EE Degree and  so I hope this counts  Ro' I've followed you for a long time on here and it's great seeing your input.

While I support collaborative speculation, one should at least be somewhat knowledgeable about the topic in order to maintain a good discussion. For example, the following CNN comment is not very valuable to the discussion:

"If I had to speculate, it sounds like the instrument readings were off. Too many people these days think that turning off the cell phones is not necessary and usually try to start them in advance because they start working right around the time the plane makes the final approach. It is infuriating, but people don't say anything because they are usually young children traveling with their parents who seem to not care."

 

 

Ok I would say most of us here have at least a basic understanding of aircraft. You don't have to be a professional pilot to understand how a aircraft operates or the systems of the plane. For some reason when it comes to aircraft it seems to be all or nothing...

 

It is possible to be quite knowledgeable about aviation and aircraft systems and not be a pro pilot or even a pilot at all.

 

Can i fly a 777..

 

 

NO..

 

Do i understand that 109 kt's ( if that is correct) is well under typical vref of a 777

 

 

YES...

 

I think most flight simmers or people that even take a basic interest in planes understand that

Mike I agree, I'm hopping in the simulator first thing tomo morning working on finishing up my C-130 type rating and scenarios like these, even if some is just conjecture, force you to put yourself in the same position and analyze the decisions you are making in the cockpit which regardless of the outcome of another event is a step towards a safer flying environment and better airmanship. I've only got a EE Degree and so I hope this counts Ro' I've followed you for a long time on here and it's great seeing your input.

I am sure you are very knowledgeable!  I know I was being a little over the top with my sarcastic post about hours and education, but I just get annoyed when people act like non pro's like me and most on here know absolutely nothing. Do I know as much about flying as you, ro and the others that do this for a living?

 

NO... and to suggest otherwise would be insulting but with that said I know I know more than the average person about planes and what gets them from a to b and what keeps them from making smoldering craters

 

 

I am sure you are very knowledgeable!  I know I was being a little over the top with my sarcastic post about hours and education, but I just get annoyed when people act like non pro's like me and most on here know absolutely nothing. Do I know as much about flying as you, ro and the others that do this for a living?

 

Mike I completely agree with you, I have been a flight simmer my whole life, and I still use both to practice and to escape the monotony. Just two years ago I only had aspirations and 0 flight time but I certainly knew what all those things meant so I am right there with you. I just got lucky enough to get to do this for a job, I'm grateful everyday.