I don't see why any self respecting pilot would use FLCH to get down when they're flying a visual approach, all they've to do is disengage the auto-pilot and the AT, pull the Thrust Levers back to Idle and slow her down. It's not rocket science, it's flying, it's what we're payed to do. The more I read though about the culture in Korea the more and more worried I become. If some of the stuff I'm reading is any way true it's a wonder this hasn't happend sooner and more frequently...

 

Regards,

Ró. 

 

If the FO is unable to challange the captain because he is a lower rank, and thats something that played a role in this accident then should the carriers with this kind of demenor be allowed to fly into the US?

They're saying "Low and Slow" is the keywords to this accident.  It also may have something to do with CRM problems more common in that culture of pilots.

From the video, that aircraft was low and slow quite a while before the problem was irreversible.

It is very possible that somebody restrained themselves from speaking up out of fear of being reprimanded.

It is mind boggling that two highly trained and tested pilots in the cockpit of a modern jumbo jet, would allow things to get so out of hand.

So far my guesses were correct except for the FCH mode. Knowing how they operate, I thought there was no way they would have performed a visual approach without autopilot, they just don't do it, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt and thought maybe used FPA and used RA as a check, but FCH mode would explain why they were so low. As to why they didn't abort then answers itself.

I had a feeling it was going to turn out to be pilot error, but what surprises me, is that the NTSB has released this much information already? Usually even if they have an idea of a cause, they don't release it to the public, at least until their preliminary report weeks/months later.

These guys were high hour pilots. I don't get it. As someone said, you don't entrust your $200+ million aircraft and hundreds of souls to a newbie. I have no doubt that CRM was problematic, but this is too egregious even taking that into account. I have flown Asiana a lot within Asia and never had a problem. This one is "pretty hard to swallow" as they say.

I had a feeling it was going to turn out to be pilot error, but what surprises me, is that the NTSB has released this much information already? Usually even if they have an idea of a cause, they don't release it to the public, at least until their preliminary report weeks/months later.

Given the time they spent going through the approach times vs actions (or lack thereof), they already know what the cause was; pilot error and though didn't say so, left JQ Public to draw the inevitable conclusions.

Oh and I will be the first to insert a tasty foot in my mouth. I was one of those who laughed at the eyewitness account of the plane cartwheeling..  It pretty much did exactly that and was terrifyingly close to going over. 

Just a pure lack of CRM, there is really no scenario in my mind you allow yourself to get that slow. With a glass cockpit, speed bugs and benchmarks in a multi-crew aircraft it would be more than obvious you are not on your approach speed and need to correct or Go-Around. I just can't fathom how the throttles would be at idle that long without anyone acknowledging it. I am a newly minted aviator and although I lack in experience I was trained in an environment where CRM started day 1, we don't even raise the gear without confirmation, so it is staggering to me that there is not more discussion on final especially in a non-standard environment.  Even a simple VDP calculation would show you an approximate altitude you would need to be at on final, that combined with a Vref should be more than enough for a seasoned pilot.

 

-Matthew Chase

I hope the pilots seek political asylum after this. How many lashes you get for downing a T7?

 

 

It makes me sick to think that these people were allowed onto a flight deck and to call themselves pilots. To be unable to carry out a visual approach, the most basic and simple of all approaches is unacceptable.

 

it makes me sick to think that whenever there is a pilot error accident some airlines get away with it pretty easily. i am personally tired of hearing of pilot error as the ultimate cause of any accident, and then having such airlines continue their operations without any penalty. we have all heard rumors about airlines (especially in asia) that seek to maximize profits in the short term and undermine the importance of having well trained and qualified crews at the pointy end of the plane. if this comes out to be a pilot error i think it is time for the regulators to enforce some rules upon the airlines about the quality of training and recruitment and have them pay a very high stake if they don't comply.

 

now i'm not saying this is exactly what has happened with this airline as i don't have any fact to back that up, but we are witnessing this type of accidents so often which suggest there are cultural problems in many airlines.

 

for those in the industry who try to cut costs in every possible aspect, there is this famous saying: "if you think maintenance and crew training are expensive, try having an accident..."

The NTSB have posted a picture on Twitter of the cabin. It looks pretty messed up, and no wonder there were people trapped.

The NTSB have posted a picture on Twitter of the cabin. It looks pretty messed up, and no wonder there were people trapped.

Pretty darn scary in that mess.. Amazing looking at that how nearly everyone survived.. Dark, smoked filled cabin in complete disarray after cartwheeling... I'm still unable to grasp, even more now after seeing the video, and the condition of the interior how ANYONE had time to process the fact they should grab their carry on luggage.

I'm still unable to grasp, even more now after seeing the video, and the condition of the interior how ANYONE had time to process the fact they should grab their carry on luggage.

Yes...It is!

 

Having seen the video, I would have taken my chance and exited the aircraft ASAP. Had the accident had happened 2 seconds or so earlier this could have been a much worse accident!

Here's Asiana's safety record for the last 20 years as reported by CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/06/us/california-asiana-accident-history/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

It makes me sick to think that these people were allowed onto a flight deck and to call themselves pilots. To be unable to carry out a visual approach, the most basic and simple of all approaches is unacceptable.

 

Regards,

Rónán O Cadhain.

My thoughts exactly.  If true, it matches my opinion of the crew of the Colgan Air Dash-400 which crashed because the captain did the complete opposite of what he was taught (or probably not taught) about basic stall recovery.  Maybe the PIC froze up when confronted with the stall, could it be argued that there is a difference between real life and simulator practice?   Probably not, since he was a seasoned pilot with 17 years experience.   I think either the pilot was having a brain freeze or medical condition that caused his attention to wander off while the speed was decaying in the final seconds of the approach, or the pilots were aware that they needed to go around and increase thrust earlier than what is reported so far, but mechanical issues prevented such action and they were too busy frantically fighting with the controls to make verbal statements that they were in fact trying to recover earlier than the records state.   I've always thought, what would happen if the PIC had a stroke during a crucial moment, and the copilot does not notice or is too slow to react?

 

Ronan and Bryan York's statements on the culture differences between this Korean crew and crews from the Western world are very relevant and could explain the delayed reaction to the deteriorating situation.   This incident sure smacks of the lack of CRM and rusty hand flying skills that are probably endemic of Asian carriers.  It's hard to believe such deep rooted psychological or cultural norms are still embedded in the mindset of these foreign crews, after all the history of past accidents attributed to poor CRM.   When lives are on the line, and hundreds of millions of dollars in aircraft value and the economic value provided by the lives on the aircraft, there is no room for such silly cultural quirks.  

Wow, ac indeed "flipped over", according to CNN video. It's amazing that airframe integrity survived that. I guess there would be much more casualties if airframe snapped at 2-3 places during that "flip".