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briansommers

How often do charter flights fly into major airports?

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In a typical month?

 

I'm talking PC12, B200, Bizjets etc

 

I'm getting some really nice payware airports and I'm trying to use them as realistically as I can. I don't fly regular iron (737/A320 etc) 

 

I know most charter flights generally land at the smaller airports around the majors.

 

Here is another way to word the same question: 

What is the smallest plane I can realistically fly in/out of a major airport? (KORD, KMCO, KTPA, KFLL, KMIA, KSEA, KLAX, KDEN, KPHX, KIAH, KDFW, KBOS, etc)

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What you might want to do is use Flightaware to look at the traffic into and out of your desired airports.  I know many major airports are also home to charter companies, some flying single and twin pistons, many flying turboprops of various sizes and small to business class jets.

 

As to the smallest plane you can fly into or out of a major airport, I doubt you would want to operate an ultralight, but otherwise I guess you can fly whatever you want, but big airports usually have bigger fees for using their runways and ramps.

 

I'm not a real pilot, just a real fan of aviation.

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I had been doing that. I also use aircharterguide.com and check via airport. 

 

What I've found so far are jet only operators.  I'm thinking I could run the Phenom 100, Citation S550 etc out of the above.

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Hi Brian

 

I think you'd be surprised at how many of the smaller (private) aircraft do fly into the bigger airports at times when it's convenient for the trip. Almost all of them have a dedicated (and busy) GA ramp. One of the first things I always do is look at the GA Ramp for payware airports to see how well they are modeled because I never fly big iron any more. Check out Google Earth- that will give you a good look at what the presence of smaller birds are at the big airports you are considering. The main drawback for big airports are 1)landing fees and 2) traffic. Since you'r flying in the sim, you really have neither :-). I do realize you want to make it realistic, but dont forget to have some fun too :-)

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I work for a charter operator. While it is true that most flights to major metropolitan areas use airports that primarily cater to business aviation eg: TEB for New York City, BED for Boston, VNY for Los Angeles etc. we do occasionally go into the major airports. Most often when our clients want to catch an outbound international flight, and don't want to have to make a long commute to the major airport from the GA airport.

 

We generally avoid the majors unless there is a good reason to go there, as landing and handling fees, and fuel prices tend to be extremely high.

 

There is generally no performance issue taking a jet or turboprop into a major, as long as it can maintain 160 knots on final approach until the marker - but I think most of these airports would discourage piston singles or twins, with slow approach speeds, as accommodating them would really screw up the traffic flow.

 

Boston is one exception, as they do have a couple of shorter runways specifically intended for smaller, slower aircraft. Because Logan is immediately adjacent to downtown Boston, it is a very convenient destination for those who want to conduct business in the city. A similar situation holds true for Lindbergh field in San Diego - though they did close their short GA runway several years ago.

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Small business jets like the Cessna Citation operate in and out of EGLL London Heathrow, so I'm guessing that means they could operate virtually anywhere!

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If it's any consolation, KDFW has an e-jet terminal north of terminal A. I've seen everything from 737BBJs to Bonanzas parked there. I think what it ultimately amounts to is the ramp fees and gas costs at major airports. As an example, most charters in the DFW area prefer either KRBD (Dallas Executive), KADS (Addison Airport), KTKI (McKinney Airport) or KDTO (Denton Airport). I know KADS houses the charter 757 used for the Mavericks, so it's able to handle bigger iron than some (I've seen at least one 737-600 land at KTKI, for example, but that was rare).

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Small business jets like the Cessna Citation operate in and out of EGLL London Heathrow, so I'm guessing that means they could operate virtually anywhere!

 

That is true but there are restrictions:

 

Operators of General or Business Aviation aircraft may not operate at any time unless

 

(i)                   they obtain prior written permission to do so from the Director of Airside Operations Heathrow Airport Limited; and

(ii)                 they obtain a slot in advance of each movement also from the airport co-ordinator; and 

(iii)                irrelevant of their time of arrival and departure, they operate the movement (departure and arrival) to the approved slot time.

 

Those who fail to comply with (g), (i), (ii), or (iii), are liable to be prohibited from operating thereafter, unless Director of Airside Operations Heathrow Airport Limited is satisfied that the movement amounted to an emergency or other circumstances beyond the control of the operator or the commander of the aircraft.

 

American Airlines reportedly paid Cyprus airlines £18.2 M (US $31M) for a single pair of daily slots at Heathrow last year.

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That is true but there are restrictions:

 

 

American Airlines reportedly paid Cyprus airlines £18.2 M (US $31M) for a single pair of daily slots at Heathrow last year.

That's a little misleading. Slots are granted by an airport's authority. The price you quote is basically an 'underground market' price American paid Cyprus airlines for those slots which they had been granted. If you were to have a need to fly to a slot controlled airport with your little cessna 172, you can certainly do so by following that airport's instructions for notification and be granted a one time slot for that flight. You won't have to pay another airline thirty million dollars for their daily slots to make that flight.

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I'm not sure that you would be allowed to land at Heathrow at any time in a Cessna 172.

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I'm not sure that you would be allowed to land at Heathrow at any time in a Cessna 172.

Why not?

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I was under the impression that small GA planes like that are not allowed at Heathrow, presumably because of the volume of commercial traffic.

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The instructions for GA operators desiring to fly to LHR quoted by mgh don't make any distinction for aircraft type. Traffic volume is accounted for by your designated slot time.

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Heathrow is controlled airspace and a Cessna 172 would have to ask for permission to enter the airspace....chances are they would not give permission.

 

Back in my flight school days in Toronto a controller from Toronto Pearson Airport did the ATC portion of the class and was asked this question about a Cessna landing at Pearson or entering the airspace. He said if the controllers are too busy at the time when a Cessna asked for permission into the airspace they wouldn't reply meaning no....if you asked again they would tell you no in there words. Pretty much the only aircraft allowed in are the traffic helicopters or police helicopters or sometimes media and police use Cessna's as well so they have a reason to be there.

 

I have seen a Cessna 172 landing at Pearson Airport once on runway 26 so yes you could and same goes for Heathrow, turns out the reason for that Cessna 172 landing at Pearson was because they were picking up a pilot from a regional airline to take them somewhere else, would have been expensive to do that.....but the chances are extremely low, and yes you would have to pay a significant landing fee

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From my copy of Pooley's 2010.....

 

"Light single and twin engined aircraft will not be permitted to use the airport"

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The  minimum landing charge at Heathow would be more than £3000 and the minimum  charge for departure would be more £1400.  That's a total of more than £4400 or about US $6800. By the time adding the charges of a compulsory Handling Agent it's going to cost little Cessna 172 quite a lot.

It's also academic, because under heathrow's EGLL AD 2.20 Local Traffic Regulations  a Cessna 172, being  a light single engine aircraft, less than 5,670 kg isn't permitted to use Heathrow. One simple reason is that Heathrow raises more money from a 300+ passenger airliner than the maximum 3 passengers from a Cessna 172. Those charges varies from £22.19 per passenger for a European destination or £31.16 per passenger for other destinations

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In that case, if you were to have a need to fly to LHR with your little cessna citation, you can certainly do so by following that airport's instructions for notification and be granted a one time slot for that flight. You won't have to pay another airline thirty million dollars for their daily slots to make that flight.

Heathrow is controlled airspace and a Cessna 172 would have to ask for permission to enter the airspace....chances are they would not give permission.

 

Back in my flight school days in Toronto a controller from Toronto Pearson Airport did the ATC portion of the class and was asked this question about a Cessna landing at Pearson or entering the airspace. He said if the controllers are too busy at the time when a Cessna asked for permission into the airspace they wouldn't reply meaning no....if you asked again they would tell you no in there words. Pretty much the only aircraft allowed in are the traffic helicopters or police helicopters or sometimes media and police use Cessna's as well so they have a reason to be there.

 

I have seen a Cessna 172 landing at Pearson Airport once on runway 26 so yes you could and same goes for Heathrow, turns out the reason for that Cessna 172 landing at Pearson was because they were picking up a pilot from a regional airline to take them somewhere else, would have been expensive to do that.....but the chances are extremely low, and yes you would have to pay a significant landing fee

Permission to fly through Class B airspace like that over Cyyz is not determined by aircraft type, but rather if you are IFR or VFR. VFR traffic, whether a cessna 172 or a Boeing BBJ would need to be granted permission by the controller. A cessna 172 if on an IFR flightplan that routes through that airspace has as much permission to be there as an Air Canada 777.

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It's rare for smaller aircraft like Cessnas and Pipers to fly into large Class B airports in the US, but many of these airports will be accommodating to smaller aircraft if arrangements are made with the ATC facility beforehand so they can slot you in.  There was a youtube video not too recently I saw of a 172 flying into O'Hare.  The pilot was on his game and did a great job keeping up with ATC.  

 

Biz jets and multi-engine turboprops fly into large airports every day in the US.  Many try and use nearby reliever fields if the client has no pressing need to use the larger field to cut costs.

 

Another common reason biz jets fly into large airports is for repositioning purposes to pick up or drop off a client using the airlines.  Try doing a repositioning flight between KOAK-KSFO or KVNY-KLAX.  You will not have a moment to breathe, I can promise you that!

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A cessna 172 if on an IFR flightplan that routes through that airspace has as much permission to be there as an Air Canada 777.

 

A Cessna 172 doesn't have any any right to be there if it isn't permitted to use heathrow.

 

I think you must have missed by previous post so I'll clarify it..

 

EGLL AD 2.20 LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS

 

1 Airport regulations

….

 

Operators of General or Business Aviation aircraft may not operate at any time unless:... 

 

vii) Purpose of flight. Flights for recreational, commemorative, charity and record breaking purposes, light twin engined private aircraft and all light single engined aircraft will not be permitted to use the airport. 'Light aircraft' shall be defined as any aircraft that has a maximum gross take-off weight of 12,500 lb (5,670 kg) or less. 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-46035E3589287923C664384E551405A9/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en_2015-02-05.pdf

 

Also it isn't an "underground market" it's an offical market..  Heathrow airport has been designated by the UK Government as a Level 3 Coordinated airport under the EU slot Regulation. It is coordinated by Airport Coordination Limited (ACL), which also deals with other UK's other coodinated airports. A slot cleared any a coordinator is mandatory for all flights and Level 3 airports .  There's a well-known process to trade a slot.

Find partner
Heathrow can provide preliminary view of any terminal capacity implications
Negotiate terms
Incumbent airline requests change from ACL
ACL check terminal constraints not broken

ACL process trade from seller to buyer

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If it's any consolation, KDFW has an e-jet terminal north of terminal A. I've seen everything from 737BBJs to Bonanzas parked there. I think what it ultimately amounts to is the ramp fees and gas costs at major airports. As an example, most charters in the DFW area prefer either KRBD (Dallas Executive), KADS (Addison Airport), KTKI (McKinney Airport) or KDTO (Denton Airport).

Love Field also has a ton of charter, business jet, small twins and single engine props taking off all the time. I live on the 4th and 5th floor facing 13L and the now closed 18, literally right across the street and high enough to see all the action. Not only is there a lot of light g/a and bizz jets, but KDAL also has a lot of helicopter activity.

 

 

I know KADS houses the charter 757 used for the Mavericks,

They keep the Mavericks 757 at KDAL not KADS. The registration is N801DM and you can follow their flights to all their away games on Flightaware. When they are in Dallas, you can see the plane parked between Landmark Aviation and Associated Air Center. In fact, if you drive over to George Coker Circle off Lemmon Ave and get their at the right time you can park in the circle and watch the team boarding for the flight.

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Mgh, the world does not revolve around Great Britain. Although I congratulate you on your successful hijacking if this thread into a discussion about London Heathrow. I was replying to ytzpilot's remarks about Toronto Pearson, which is in Canada, and really trying to speak in general terms. You can, in general, fly a GA aircraft to any big airport as long as you follow their procedures for obtaining permission and are willing to pay the fees. You can also fly any GA aircraft through the airspace of any big airport without permission if you are on an IFR plan that is cleared through that airspace. Requesting permission to fly through Class B is strictly a VFR requirement and is not related to type of aircraft.

 

Yes mgh, there is an official procedure for airlines to trade slots with each other. I used the word underground market in quotations to distinguish that the buying and selling of slots as you alluded to is completely different from the granting procedure that you quoted. The slots are granted by the government for free in essence. The buying and selling for millions come afterward between those who have been granted and those who want more or less. Your post gave the completely wrong impression that a GA pilot who wanted to fly into a slot controlled airport had to buy a slot.

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I know that Phoenix gets multiple daily charter flights on business jets.

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Love Field also has a ton of charter, business jet, small twins and single engine props taking off all the time. I live on the 4th and 5th floor facing 13L and the now closed 18, literally right across the street and high enough to see all the action. Not only is there a lot of light g/a and bizz jets, but KDAL also has a lot of helicopter activity.

 

 

KDAL is not a major. It is an Index C. KDFW is an Index E by comparison. You would find more biz activity and GA at KDAL.

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Permission to fly through Class B airspace like that over Cyyz is not determined by aircraft type, but rather if you are IFR or VFR. VFR traffic, whether a cessna 172 or a Boeing BBJ would need to be granted permission by the controller. A cessna 172 if on an IFR flightplan that routes through that airspace has as much permission to be there as an Air Canada 777.

 

This is true, it all comes down to how busy the class B is because they could also not allow a single engine to file a flight plan through the Class B at a certain time. A lot of GA aircraft in Toronto just fly north of Pearsons B space to avoid it. But if someone really wanted to then they could file a flight plan as well, or even file a flight plan to land at Pearson if they wanted to.

 

I do recall a pilot that accidentally landed her GA aircraft at Pearson as she mistook it for Brampton Airport. This happened in the mid 1990's and if I do recall this was her last ever flight. She didn't have permission to be in the airspace and the controllers were quite surprised to see her land there, she was on the frequency for Brampton Airport at the time so they had no way to communicate with her. Going from memory it was always her husbands dream to fly but he failed his medical so she got a pilots license to take him up, and this was one of those flights where she made this mistake.

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