I maintain that this campaign 'boycott Carenado' has very little sense, under my personal view. For unsatisfied customers, there is a refund policy and, above all, no obligation to buy.

 

Actually, I think it makes a great deal of sense and it has nothing to do with ethics or unfair business practices or any other sort of chest-thumping.  It's simply employing good old free market principles.  If I don't like what a company is doing, I vote with my $$ and encourage others do the same in the hopes of changing their approach to their customers.  It's not like this is a one-time issue with their products - this is clearly an intentional business model.

 

I'm both a Carenado fan and a Carenado detractor.  I've gotten a lot of pleasure out of planes they've produced which feature 3rd party GPS integration (RXP in my case) to bolster the systems side, and (mostly) good old analogue gauges.  I'll cautiously buy others that are similar though with a few qualms and never on initial release.

 

I will NOT buy ANY Carenado products which purport to feature "complex" systems no matter how much I might want that particular aircraft, and it's not solely because I know the systems will be incomplete.  It's also because so much that is implemented turns out to be broken or functions improperly even after SPs and because the documentation is woefully inadequate for more complex aircraft.  Good grief, just including a simple cockpit diagram with clearly labeled functions would go a long way towards easing the pain.

 

Yep, this makes perfect sense to me - it's called being an informed consumer and I strongly encourage others to do the same.

 

Scott

I think that some folks should be reminded that even with all the (assumed) 'evil' business practices in place at Carenado, they do not charge extra (namely: twice) for running their products in either FSX or P3D.

 

And they never charged for just downloading your installer again while also offering a refund policy.

 

So once we are on, erm, 'upsetting' practices and how to treat them, we shouldn't forget about the pros and cons, therefore the whole picture. :smile: Avoiding confirmation bias.

The whole picture also includes the fact Carenado doesn't have any real world ties to the aircraft manufacturers they depict in their products, or that they don't have to pay these manufacturers lots of money for licensing fees for real world training applications and etc.

 

Anyway that is a completely different discussion entirely and is way out of the scope of what everyone is talking about here.

 

 

I think that some folks should be reminded that even with all the (assumed) 'evil' business practices in place at Carenado, they do not charge extra (namely: twice) for running their products in either FSX or P3D.

 

Not sure how this is germane to this discussion.  I would happily pay for additional work necessary for support on a different platform if that work was of high quality.  Many of the vendors who do charge for P3D do so because their products' advanced features are more sensitive to minor version changes.  That's the price we pay for wanting a bit more than what FSX provided by default.

 

Bottom line is that it's all about value provided for the $$ spent for me and as I noted in my last post, nothing about "evil" or "ethics" or "unscrupulous business practices" or any other such thing.  Value for money spent.  That's it.  If the value wasn't there in the FSX product, it makes no difference whatsoever to me if they offer the same flawed product on an P3D at no charge.

 

Scott

I vote with my $$ and encourage others do the same in the hopes of changing their approach to their customers.  It's not like this is a one-time issue with their products - this is clearly an intentional business model.

 

Makes a whole lot of sense from a customer point of view and I concur with your post to a great extent. Yet, I don't think Carenado will change their business model or bring their future products to a higher standard just because a bunch of people are not buying their last Hawker. Again, AVSIM may be the harbour for top class simmers, still it does not represent necessarily not the whole sim market. Quite the contrary: most of sim customers do not like complexity.

 

People bought and still buy Carenado products because - in most cases - there is no better alternative on the market. Not because they have expectations of PMDG or RealAir level products, but simply because they want those models and they have no other or better alternative at that time to choose from. Nobody would buy the Hawker 850XP from Carenado if the same model would be offered by another competitor with a record of higher quality products. Simmers are eager to fly new models all the time and are ready to invest their money in this hobby. Often they literally can't wait for a new aicraft to be released. Software houses develop their own business on the top of this and, obviously, they invest their time and development resources where the market demand and the potential profitability are higher. Everybody is blaming Carenado for releasing products below a quality standard considered acceptable, but the real question is: why are there so few quality business jets out there? Why did other competitors not develop the same models before or after? You can't blame Carenado for trying to offer to the market what the market is actually demanding and, in most cases, waiting impatiently. You may like their business model or not, but you can't blame them for doing business.

 

Simmers will stop buying from Carenado as soon as other competitors will offer the same models with a higher quality and more attention to detail for a comparable price. This will force Carenado to change their current business model: either reducing their prices OR bringing their products to a higher standard of quality. In short: a wider choice will make the whole difference.

 

Hugs

Quite the contrary: most of sim customers do not like complexity.

 

A bit of a broad statement I think.  I've no idea what percentage of the sim population prefers complexity vs simplicity (and many of the better aircraft out there actually offer options to satisfy both camps), but to my mind that's also not germane to this discussion which is mostly about quality, not complexity as such.  My specific gripe is that the more Carenado tries to tackle complex systems and planes, the worse they do at it.  And that to me is the issue. 

 

BTW, I would also note that Carenado are clearly trying to provide products for those who prefer at least some systems complexity or they wouldn't be tackling things like update-able databases which are very much in the wheelhouse of those who sweat more of the details, so I would argue that they are swinging at and missing a sizeable chunk of a market they're trying to serve.

 

 

 

You may like their business model or not, but you can't blame them for doing business.

 

I expect you mean this generically rather than as a specific response to me, but just to be absolutely clear - there's no issue of "blame" from my perspective.  I do not like their current business model, but they're welcome to continue with it if they chose.  But I'm not buying these planes much as I would love to have some of them.  The only power I have as a consumer is to vote with my wallet and to be clear as to why this customer is voting no.

 

Scott

@ barrel-owl - your whole viewpoint again reflects that of "complexity" being the issue here, regarding Carenado.   I don't hear anyone complaining that the Hawker doesn't have a weather radar or super-duper-advanced-external-FDE system ........ it's not complexity that is the cause of disappointment here ..... it's BUGS.   It's things that they advertise that are featured, that don't work.

As barrel_owl has pointed out so eloquently, the few individuals taking this 'boycott' step did not trigger any kind of behaviour change within the last few years and, often enough, do not belong to the potential target group in the first place.

 

'Moving the goalposts' responses when pointing out the obvious bias also don't help: This dev is allowed to do this or that while another one, offering a fair package with money back policy, should be avoided. :huh:

 

I would agree though, this kind of reasoning is allowed but it could well be that the constant repeats of people desperately wanting to educate others about how to spend their money are the element making these threads longer than needed.

 

To add, it's literally the same circus with every release. (Which, in conjunction with the first paragraph, calls for a change of tactics btw)

 

You can't blame Carenado for trying to offer to the market what the market is actually demanding and, in most cases, waiting impatiently.

Excellent point and a helpful reminder about how that market self-regulation actually works. I surely won't blame Carenado for offering planes and trying to sell them. In fact, I wonder why other devs with very vocal user bases don't get up to speed and join this lucrative field.

 

Concerns regarding the Carenado bugs are valid by all means. But where's the alternative when I want to fly.. lets say a H850XP? :mellow:

I expect you mean this generically rather than as a specific response to me, but just to be absolutely clear - there's no issue of "blame" from my perspective.  I do not like their current business model, but they're welcome to continue with it if they chose.  But I'm not buying these planes much as I would love to have some of them.  The only power I have as a consumer is to vote with my wallet and to be clear as to why this customer is voting no.

 

Absolutely, I meant this generically. My response was not to you, but to what (to me) appears to be more or less as the 'consensus' here about Carenado's business policy.

As far as your specific posts are concerned, I have very little or nothing to disagree. I could go as far as to say that I subscribe them in full.

 

 

@ barrel-owl - your whole viewpoint again reflects that of "complexity" being the issue here, regarding Carenado.   I don't hear anyone complaining that the Hawker doesn't have a weather radar or super-duper-advanced-external-FDE system ........ it's not complexity that is the cause of disappointment here ..... it's BUGS.   It's things that they advertise that are featured, that don't work.

 

Indeed bugs do not appear to me as the real cause of disappointment here. Bugs will be corrected. Carenado admitted clearly and openly on their FB page that they are working on a patch to be released in the next future. My take is that this will fix most of bugs, however they will never release a product that someone with your level of skill, knowledge and expectation will deem as satisfactory. And this is because you are probably not their target customer in first place. That simple.

 

I concur with ttocs: Carenado released more than decent products in the past, but probably they have not (yet) the knowledge to work on aircraft of higher complexity, although there is a clear demand on the market for small jets and business jets and a very limited offer so far. Or maybe they could, but this would end up raising the cost of their final product dramatically.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

As barrel_owl has pointed out so eloquently, the few individuals taking this 'boycott' step did not trigger any kind of behaviour change within the last few years and, often enough, do not belong to the potential target group in the first place.

 

How in the world do you know what the "target group" is, let alone whether I or anyone else who's decided to pass on this plane are in it?  I claim that I am.  If I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't bother posting here.  I own (and am quite happy with) a fair number of Carenado planes, so it's not as though I'm in a group that dismisses Carenado out of hand.  I'm a (unfortunately mostly former) Carenado customer.

 

 

 

'Moving the goalposts' responses when pointing out the obvious bias also don't help: This dev is allowed to do this or that while another one, offering a fair package with money back policy, should be avoided. :huh:

 

Sorry, I'm going to call strawman here.  What biases, what goalposts are being moved, and what devs are we speaking of, and who's doing the speaking?  I know I'm addressing Carenado, and Carenado alone in regards to the issue of release quality relative to prices asked and features advertised.  Nothing more.

 

 

 

Concerns regarding the Carenado bugs are valid by all means. But where's the alternative when I want to fly.. lets say a H850XP? :mellow:

 

I'm stranded at sea and the only water currently available is salt water.  What's my alternative when I'm thirsty and dehydrated? 

 

Tempting as that luscious water looks, mine is to wait and hope for rain.  -_-

 

One last thought, and then I'm done so as to avoid "making these threads longer than needed". <ahem>.  I'm not "desperately" trying to educate anyone, and I'm not sure why the loaded terms which seem like an attempt to marginalize those who disagree with you.  As are a number of others, I'm simply explaining what I'm doing as well as why.  I'm not calling for a "boycott", or arguing good vs evil or anything even close.  Everyone is obviously welcome to make up their own minds.

 

WIll some of us who are bowing out of further purchases make a substantial impact?  Perhaps.  Unlike you, I do see changes as Carenado do seem to be trying to fill gaps in systems stuff that have kept many of us from buying recent Carenado efforts.  The fact that they've integrated Navigraph support speaks volumes.  In other words, yes I do see Carenado trying to find a better balance in terms of offering some system depth and yes I know they're never going to offer PMDG depth but I'm honestly OK with that.  The problem is that this expansion has served to make their quality issues occupy an even larger mindshare at initial release.

 

Quality.  Value.  Those are the things that matter.

 

Scott

I personally don't want and am not implying boycotting Carenado.  I just want what I paid for and like many of us, the long wait translated to us that we were going to get a thoroughly evaluated and tested product, and we did not.  I didn't try for a refund because I do like the aircraft and know that I will be satisfied with either thier SP relaease and/or the fixes many of you geniuses have provided to us! 

Bugs will be corrected.

 

I respect your opinion, but the above is definitely not my experience of many past Carenado offerings.  Their PC-12 (released Dec 2013) still has unresolved bugs and does not seem to be subject to any further development of service packs.  Their S550 again still has blatant bugs, and again it appears unlikely we'll see more service packs beyond the two already released.

 

Their Phenom has incorrect FLC modelling (despite the fact that they do offer proper pitch-based FLC in other aircraft..... sort of) and as it was released in early 2013 and hasn't had a service pack since mid 2013, almost certainly won't see any more bug fix work.

 

I could go on, with a few more examples but I think I've got the point across! :smile:

 

If all the bugs at release of each of their products were indeed resolved in time, I think this thread would look very different.

I respect your opinion, but the above is definitely not my experience of many past Carenado offerings.  Their PC-12 (released Dec 2013) still has unresolved bugs and does not seem to be subject to any further development of service packs.  Their S550 again still has blatant bugs, and again it appears unlikely we'll see more service packs beyond the two already released.

 

Their Phenom has incorrect FLC modelling (despite the fact that they do offer proper pitch-based FLC in other aircraft..... sort of) and as it was released in early 2013 and hasn't had a service pack since mid 2013, almost certainly won't see any more bug fix work.

 

I could go on, with a few more examples but I think I've got the point across! :smile:

 

 

Alas, too bad for me even touching S550 that I bought, waste of time.

 

Dirk.

I'm having fun with it...  450 ktas on Pilot Edge... finally something to break the monotony of PMDG B738 (I mean that seriously...  the thing is well done everyone knows that but bizjets are way cooler!)

 

Then again I've modded it with some things  - navigation sources that actually work hehe.

Ryan, just out of interest, are you using any FDE mods so far?

Pm me