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carguy4471

First impressions of X-Plane.... not great

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So I decided I'd try x-plane out to contrast it against P3D.  A couple things I just can't get used to, but maybe I can change/adjust somehow??

 

First is the view.  I feel like my face is up against the dash.  I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all.  I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.  

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth.  The flight model feels horribly unstable.  I've only tried the stock baron so far though.  And with that I can't sort out how to turn on the dang lights!!

 

Are there some pro tips to help me out.  I'd like to give x-plane an educated attempt and at least understand it well enough to make a decision about it.

 

 

Thanks!!!

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The view controls take a while to get used to, but actually I find it much easier to move around the cockpit in X-Plane than in FSX. Many liken it to having EZDOK built in.

 

With the default key commands I think the virtual cockpit in SHIFT+9 and then you can use the arrow keys to move around, and the mouse with a right click to pan. You can adjust the field of view in the rendering settings.

 

In regards to the controls, I too have found that generally aircraft have a more lively feel to them than in FSX, but don't judge it by the default aircraft. Like in FSX, the default aircraft aren't very good.

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First is the view.  I feel like my face is up against the dash.  I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all.  I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.  

 

You can define custom views using the built-in XP-10 function. Position the camera where you want it and hit "Ctrl + X", where X is the number to which you which to assign the view. 

 

The Field-of-view angle can be adjusted in the Rendering Options. 

 

 

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth.  The flight model feels horribly unstable.  I've only tried the stock baron so far though.  And with that I can't sort out how to turn on the dang lights!!

 

Play around with "Joystick & Hardware" calibration options.

 

 

I'd like to give x-plane an educated attempt and at least understand it well enough to make a decision about it.

 

Good to hear that. :)

 

A newcomer to X-Plane should "want" to like X-Plane and have an open mind towards it. Many people coming from FSX/P3D just fire up X-Plane one time and say "hmm, feels weird, I don't like it". That's not the way!

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So I decided I'd try x-plane out to contrast it against P3D.  A couple things I just can't get used to, but maybe I can change/adjust somehow??

 

First is the view.  I feel like my face is up against the dash.  I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all.  I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.  

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth.  The flight model feels horribly unstable.  I've only tried the stock baron so far though.  And with that I can't sort out how to turn on the dang lights!!

 

Are there some pro tips to help me out.  I'd like to give x-plane an educated attempt and at least understand it well enough to make a decision about it.

 

 

Thanks!!!

 

FOV can be adjusted in the rendering settings (lower middle area of the window). Most people seem pretty happy with a setting of 85.

 

As for the stock aircraft, they are stock aircraft after all. If the controls are too touchy, you can adjust them in the respective settings menu and see which setting is to your liking. In general, aircraft will feel less on rails than what you may be used to.

 

As for the educated attempt/decision, you will only know once you've actively used it for a good while. If you are trying to replicate the exact same experience that you have in P3D, you will not be able to. A different sim is, after all, different. ;)

 

Is there something about P3D that drove you to give X-Plane a try? Or are you just curious?

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1. FIRST ISSUE:

(which is not an issue at all, xplane is extremely powerfull on this by default and puts P3D to a shame)

 

1.1. You define your FOV (field of view) on xplane rendering settings. This value defines the width of the screen view to see more or less cockpit

1.2. You also set your pilot's head position as per your liking, forward, backguard, left, right etc. using xplane pre-assigned keys or you can customize them on a per aircraft basis and you can update them real time as many times as you like.

1.3 You can also set pre-defined views on a per aircraft basis, overhead panel, captain's view, pedestal, mcp, wing view, anything. So you get that view under a single clic.

1.4 You can quick zoom to point anything specific and rotate the view freely if required also at any time to mimic rotating your head.

 

2. SECOND.

Twitchy controls an flight model are two entire different things.

 

Twitchy controls, it depends what controls you use and set xplane for those controls. It is an entire different setting for a control that has a 2" travel than for a control that has 8" travel. You need to go to joystick & assignment and adjust all sliders as per your controls.

 

Flight model, well i have to presume you never been on a real aircraft as a pilot. You can not leave a Cessna for 3 hs untouched and it will keep flying straight ahead and leveled, this doesn't happen on real life at all. The aircraft dances around at all times and you must keep applying tiny corrections for keeping it smooth unless you are in a/p.

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1. FIRST ISSUE:

(which is not an issue at all, xplane is extremely powerfull on this by default and puts P3D to a shame)

 

1.1. You define your FOV (field of view) on xplane rendering settings. This value defines the width of the screen view to see more or less cockpit

1.2. You also set your pilot's head position as per your liking, forward, backguard, left, right etc. using xplane pre-assigned keys or you can customize them on a per aircraft basis and you can update them real time as many times as you like.

1.3 You can also set pre-defined views on a per aircraft basis, overhead panel, captain's view, pedestal, mcp, wing view, anything. So you get that view under a single clic.

1.4 You can quick zoom to point anything specific and rotate the view freely if required also at any time to mimic rotating your head.

 

2. SECOND.

Twitchy controls an flight model are two entire different things.

 

Twitchy controls, it depends what controls you use and set xplane for those controls. It is an entire different setting for a control that has a 2" travel than for a control that has 8" travel. You need to go to joystick & assignment and adjust all sliders as per your controls.

 

Flight model, well i have to presume you never been on a real aircraft as a pilot. You can not leave a Cessna for 3 hs untouched and it will keep flying straight ahead and leveled, this doesn't happen on real life at all. The aircraft dances around at all times and you must keep applying tiny corrections for keeping it smooth unless you are in a/p.

 

Actually, I have my private, inst and multi.  But I'll let you handle inserting the foot.

 

For the rest, thank you.  I'll try those few settings out.  I'll tinker with it and fly it.  I'm mostly trying it just out of curiosity.  I like options.  I know it'll be different but out of the box it's nearly unflyable.  

 

Any other advise will be well received and added to the "tinker with" list.  

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So I decided I'd try x-plane out to contrast it against P3D.  A couple things I just can't get used to, but maybe I can change/adjust somehow??

 

First is the view.  I feel like my face is up against the dash.  I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all.  I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.  

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth.  The flight model feels horribly unstable.  I've only tried the stock baron so far though.  And with that I can't sort out how to turn on the dang lights!!

 

Are there some pro tips to help me out.  I'd like to give x-plane an educated attempt and at least understand it well enough to make a decision about it.

 

 

Thanks!!!

Carguy,

 

Youtube has some great videos that will help you get the most out of XP 10.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rmaQO3zdkg

 

It took me a few months to fully understand XP, but I can honestly say that it's an excellent sim with some freeware and "must have" payware add-ons.

 

Hang in there and good luck. Thx.

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Carguy,

 

Youtube has some great videos that will help you get the most out of XP 10.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rmaQO3zdkg

 

It took me a few months to fully understand XP, but I can honestly say that it's an excellent sim with some freeware and "must have" payware add-ons.

 

Hang in there and good luck. Thx.

 

Nice!!!  I just installed it last night so haven't had time to hit up youtube yet.  Imma check that video out as soon as I get home from work today!!   Thank you!!

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Also this.

https://www.stickandrudderstudios.com/x-camera/download-x-camera/


I forgot to mention to not use any stability enhancements in the controls setup. Rather increase you joystick linearity setting so that becomes non-linear and learn to do small movements when flying. It's very rewarding. I'm not sure what the best setup is with linearity if you're using a yoke. I reckon no non-linearity would work best in that case.

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I forgot to mention to not use any stability enhancements in the controls setup. Rather increase you joystick linearity setting so that becomes non-linear and learn to do small movements when flying.

Interesting, would you mind pointing us to the right settings menu for that?

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First is the view. I feel like my face is up against the dash. I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all. I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.

 

I think others have you well sorted here. Be warned, once you get used to flexibility of the XP view system, FSX/P3D feels terribly clumsy.  It's the single hardest adjustment I have to make when bouncing between the two sim platforms! 

 

One thing that I do in XP, is to setup a controller (I actually have an old Playstation 2 control that works well for this) with nothing but view controls - panning, tilting, up & down, back and forth, side to side, with a button to jump back to the main cockpit view, and a button to instantly save a new main cockpit view. With it, I can either grab the controller and move around the cabin perfectly, or else switch to outside while on the ground and walk around just as if I were in a regular video game.  Terribly addictive, and no need for an 'avatar' is in P3D!

 

 

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth. The flight model feels horribly unstable. I've only tried the stock baron so far though.

 

I think worth noting that without properly setting up the responsiveness of your controllers inside X-Plane, you'll have no idea how good (or bad) any specific XP flight model is.

 

If you click on the menu item 'Settings' / 'Joysticks & Equipment', you'll bring up a window that has several tabs along the top. The tab you want to take a look at is called 'Nullzone'. On the left side you have 'stability-augmentation'. Don't be fooled by the use of the word 'REALISM' here - turning the sliders down the minimum will result in extremely sensitive controls.  If you like that, great, but I find things to be far too sensitive at the minimums, even with linearity adjusted.

 

I find a setting of 25-40% works well with my PFC yoke for pitch and roll for most aircraft, whereas about 50-65% works well for my Saitek rudder pedals. For flying helicopters, I turn up the the pitch and roll settings a bit higher, since I'm using a plain joystick.  Basically, if you find things are far too 'touchy' look at this section, in conjunction with the right side of the window, where you can set linearity.

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Interesting, would you mind pointing us to the right settings menu for that?

Sure. Its under controls and equipment and then under Null zones.

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So I decided I'd try x-plane out to contrast it against P3D.  A couple things I just can't get used to, but maybe I can change/adjust somehow??

 

First is the view.  I feel like my face is up against the dash.  I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all.  I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.  

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth.  The flight model feels horribly unstable.  I've only tried the stock baron so far though.  And with that I can't sort out how to turn on the dang lights!!

 

Are there some pro tips to help me out.  I'd like to give x-plane an educated attempt and at least understand it well enough to make a decision about it.

 

 

Thanks!!!

 

Take it from a recent convert, just stick with it.  I felt the same as you, the viewing was hard to get use to, as well as using the nobs etc.... however slowly after several flights I was hooked and now it has become a natural flow for me.... in fact after I flew the JarDesgin A330 (recommend) last night I found the workload was much easier because of the camera control of XP or X-Camera.   I think the freedom built into XP with the camera is a major plus and one I had not taken into account. 

 

So in short, over time I have found the flow of the cockpit much easier in XP over the others.

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The planes yawing so bad is an issue. The biggest problems occur on the ground. It has something to do with how XP doesn't properly model ground friction and the effects of wind while taxiing. 

So if you taxi with a crosswind, the plane will pull left (or right) just like you've got full takeoff power in and are fighting torque. If winds are calm, this won't happen. In the air, prop planes kind of act like they have a heavy left wing. Hopefully they deal with this some day. 

 

But don't let that deter you. These are no worse then many flaws in the FSX flight model. Just different. 

I recently started using XP as well so if you need advice on what freeware plugins are must haves, I can shoot you a list. 

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Take it from a recent convert, just stick with it.  I felt the same as you, the viewing was hard to get use to, as well as using the nobs etc.... however slowly after several flights I was hooked and now it has become a natural flow for me.... in fact after I flew the JarDesgin A330 (recommend) last night I found the workload was much easier because of the camera control of XP or X-Camera.   I think the freedom built into XP with the camera is a major plus and one I had not taken into account. 

 

So in short, over time I have found the flow of the cockpit much easier in XP over the others.

 

Always interesting to see/hear what converts end up liking or disliking. Most of these seem to be usability factors like the camera system or framerates. Surprisingly, I don't read about a lot of people having  issues with the UI after they have used X-Plane for a little while (not saying it doesn't need improvement).

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One thing that I do in XP, is to setup a controller (I actually have an old Playstation 2 control that works well for this) with nothing but view controls - panning, tilting, up & down, back and forth, side to side, with a button to jump back to the main cockpit view, and a button to instantly save a new main cockpit view. With it, I can either grab the controller and move around the cabin perfectly, or else switch to outside while on the ground and walk around just as if I were in a regular video game.  Terribly addictive, and no need for an 'avatar' is in P3D!

 

 

Now this is an interesting idea, thanks for passing it along, I'll have to tinker with setting it up when I have some free time.

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Surprisingly, I don't read about a lot of people having  issues with the UI after they have used X-Plane for a little while (not saying it doesn't need improvement).

 

Ha !!! :shok:  That's indeed quite interesting - until, let's say, 2 years ago it was a "fact" that the UI is almost unusable. Now, there are more and more people taking the plunge and nobody complains about the UI - although it is unchanged since the release of XP10  :Thinking::BigGrin: .

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Once I learned what settings to change, I stopped looking at the UI. :smile:

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I actually kind of like the UI.... true, it's not glossy and modern with big icons, such as the new DTG Flight School is showing, but it's simple and it does enable a *lot* of information and control over the simulator. It's just a matter of learning how to get to everything.

 

The new style UI, such as the 'Nearby Air Traffic Controllers' window, is in fact quite nice, in a late 90's Linux sort of way.  :smile:

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Flight model, well i have to presume you never been on a real aircraft as a pilot. You can not leave a Cessna for 3 hs untouched and it will keep flying straight ahead and leveled, this doesn't happen on real life at all. The aircraft dances around at all times and you must keep applying tiny corrections for keeping it smooth unless you are in a/p.

 

I think that the flight dynamics of a real aircraft are quite misunderstood. A Cessna, if trimmed properly (with the qualification of flying in calm air), will fly quite happily for reasonable amounts of time without pilot intervention. Sometimes it is made out by simmers like you are wrestling an anaconda. Cessna's in particular, are very, very benign aircraft.

 

The torque reaction in XPlane is incredibly unrealistic. A Cessna will not screw off the runway within seconds of applying full throttle, as depicted in XPlane - sad, but true. A typical Cessna will require a light touch of right rudder, that's all. Again, this is an effect that is often over-stated by simmers, perhaps for dramatic effect. Generally speaking, flying an aircraft is not hard, and if you had to wrestle an aircraft as it is sometimes perceived as, well, perhaps it is not a very good aircraft.

 

Yes, I am a real world CPL, Instructor and IFR (1,000 hours), so I think that I can comment.

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There was a bug where torque was getting doubled. I don't know if it's already been fixed or will be fixed in 10.50.

 

 

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Generally speaking, flying an aircraft is not hard, and if you had to wrestle an aircraft as it is sometimes perceived as, well, perhaps it is not a very good aircraft.

 

That's a good point!

 

Aircraft handling characteristics are classified using the Cooper-Harper scale:

 

fig66.jpg

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So I decided I'd try x-plane out to contrast it against P3D.  A couple things I just can't get used to, but maybe I can change/adjust somehow??

 

First is the view.  I feel like my face is up against the dash.  I can't see nearly enough of the cockpit and the view isn't very wide at all.  I did manage to figure out how to toggle mouse look to a button on my yolk so I sorted that much out.  

 

Second, the controls are so very touchy and the aircraft seems to yaw like a bandit on meth.  The flight model feels horribly unstable.  I've only tried the stock baron so far though.  And with that I can't sort out how to turn on the dang lights!!

 

Are there some pro tips to help me out.  I'd like to give x-plane an educated attempt and at least understand it well enough to make a decision about it.

 

 

Thanks!!!

 

You can use the Greater Than key (>) or Less Than key (<) to adjust your seat Forward and Backwards. The default planes are Garbage. You need a good Payware plane to test X-Plane. If you like GA planes I would recommend the Airfoilllab C172. Using the mouse to change your view is very intuitive once you get use to it. One hand on the Yolk to control the plane and one hand on the mouse to change the view ! In PD3 you have to press the space bar while simultaneously using the mouse, and I guess your suppose to use your tongue on the yolk to maintain directional control while changing views ! Talk about counterintuitive ! But than again PD3 flys on rails ! lol.... But like anything new in life, it takes some getting used TO.   

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Flight model, well i have to presume you never been on a real aircraft as a pilot. You can not leave a Cessna for 3 hs untouched and it will keep flying straight ahead and leveled, this doesn't happen on real life at all. The aircraft dances around at all times and you must keep applying tiny corrections for keeping it smooth unless you are in a/p.

 

Ok, I'd like to discuss this a bit.  I too, flew many planes in real life, and built/owned a Van's RV6.  I do feel that that "lively" feeling, mentioned by a lot of X-Plane pilots is too lively, and sometimes un-realistic. Some simmers think that air is constantly moving a real airplane around. Side to side, yaw, up & down, etc.  When there is mild turbulence, we'll see the yoke or stick, constantly moving. However, it's actually  flight surfaces are moving, due to the turbulence, which are connected to the yoke/stick. The ailerons move, the yoke rotates, and the pilots hand moves, because it's holding on to the yoke. We, as pilots are not constantly fighting this turbulence. We just ride it out. Of course, if a wing does a good drop, then bring it back up.

 

I'll often see X-Planes yawing the nose, side to side. When I see that on the screen, I instinctively push both feet on the rudder pedal, because it's like dutch roll. In real life, the passengers in seats farther back, would really be hating this yawing action, which can be nauseating.  A plane such as this, would just be unstable, and needs a design correction, or yaw damper. 

 

Then of course, there was the torque issue, which is being corrected. This would give the simmer the impression, the us pilots rotate off the runway, holding an aileron correction, so the left wing tip doesn't skid along the runway.  Torque does have it's place.  We can actually feel the left wing pushing down towards the runway. But by rotation time, the wings lift have overcome the torque. Unless, it's a case of high power, low air speeds, and a roll over on the back, like a P-51 Mustang could do. 

 

Something else, I don't really enjoy, is a constant roll motion, which dips the wing right, then left, then right again, etc. I want to keep fighting it with the joystick. It's a pain!  Real life planes, even a touchy one like my RV, or the Pitts, isn't that hard to keep more stable. We can actually feel the air loads on the flight surfaces through the yoke/stick.  With a sim, the screen is just constantly moving, with no real sense of feel, except for the want to keep counteracting the roll.  I prefer my sim planes, too just fly smoother, unless I'm simulating a good storm. 

 

And as I've often said, when someone brings up the slogan of "flying on rails"................. because FSX/P3D is smoother by default, it's not bad at all. There are many times, in which even a small plane, will fly so smooth, that there will actually be a lack of moving, feeling wise. We often flew the RV around 200 mph, and the ground just slowly moved underneath. Calm as can be. This could even occur, when there was surface winds for the takeoff.

 

At the end of the day, I do like X-Plane. I do like FSX. I don't have P3D. I use some of the better known flight models for both sims.  The new Airfoil Labs 172 Cessna for X-Plane is a good model. I really like the A2A Cherokee for FSX (lots of Cherokee hours in the Warrior, Archer & retractable Arrow), as well as the RealAir Lancair Legacy (FSX). It reminds me more of the RV, than any sim model I've used. It's a comfortable & enjoyable sim model.  

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I think that the flight dynamics of a real aircraft are quite misunderstood. A Cessna, if trimmed properly (with the qualification of flying in calm air), will fly quite happily for reasonable amounts of time without pilot intervention. Sometimes it is made out by simmers like you are wrestling an anaconda. Cessna's in particular, are very, very benign aircraft.

 

The torque reaction in XPlane is incredibly unrealistic. A Cessna will not screw off the runway within seconds of applying full throttle, as depicted in XPlane - sad, but true. A typical Cessna will require a light touch of right rudder, that's all. Again, this is an effect that is often over-stated by simmers, perhaps for dramatic effect. Generally speaking, flying an aircraft is not hard, and if you had to wrestle an aircraft as it is sometimes perceived as, well, perhaps it is not a very good aircraft.

 

Yes, I am a real world CPL, Instructor and IFR (1,000 hours), so I think that I can comment.

 

A reasonable amount of time would be what ? I only have a few hundred hours of real world flying, and ive never experienced a calm day where I can let go of the yolk for more 1-15 seconds before the plane would start to veer off to the left or right. Granted these are rental planes so they are not in tip top shape. The problem with Xplane is the spiraling slip stream model is broken !

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