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After flying the PMDG 737 and 777 for so looong and enjoying it to the max, there's one important phase in this study sim that could be improved upon in my opinion. Thats the pre-flight check. I start to feel really dumb doing this check knowing every knob, switch and lever is in the same position as it was yesterday and 'ahum' the hundreds of flights previously. I can dream that by now. The idea is that it would be nice to have an option in the FMC which makes the sim load from random PanelState files. Call it 'Post maintenance', First flight o/t day', or simply 'New driver' mode. In these PanelState files, the aircraft would be kind of in a C&D or return state, but knobs, switches and levers could be in different positions. In worst cases press. switch to 'manual' or flap handle in flaps 40 position while flaps are up. Could be fun if unnoticed ;)

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Gerrit Kranenbarg

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I think yours is an excellent idea!

 

I can empathise; things tend to get monotonous when you can expect the switches/quantities to be where they are saved, each and every load-up.

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Aren't maintainance personell supposed to put certain switches back into their regular positions? Most of the switches aren't even part of the pre-flight check, so those could be easily overlooked. Secondly, it seems counterproductive for an airline if the maintainance personell do their maintainance and subsequently make a "mess" of the cockpit by leaving switches in unusual positions.

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Well, randomeness isn't really the way to go but I really like the idea. A2A, for example, have the option for persistent aircraft states, which means that the aircraft, including all switches, fuid levels, possible failures etc. is in the same state as you left it the flight before and closed the sim. If you forget to do the proper shutdown procedure, and checklist, for instance, it'll still be in the same state that you left it in. 

Having that in mind maybe PMDG could realize such a system...unless simply saving the panel state before you leave the aircraft does the trick...but who has time for that anyway... :rolleyes:

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Aren't maintainance personell supposed to put certain switches back into their regular positions?

 

Indeed, but it shouldn't be a mess. Just a single 'oh he forgot that', they are humans too and make mistakes. :smile:

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It' a good idea... I wished there were possible failures to detect on the preflight check, like for exemple some pump failure... also some possible failure like apu fire when you start it as well as hot engine starts, wet engine starts etc...

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As I recall someone actually created a free app of this sort that worked with PMDG's original 744.  It was kind cool back in the day.

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Gents,

 

The concept of persistence has existed in our products since the release of the 747-400 Queen of the Skies for FS9 back in 2005...

 

Flying the line, it is exceedingly rare to find something "out of position" during the course of normal operations.  About the only time I ever recall finding something not in the anticipated position was picking an airplane up from a D check.

 

If, in the course of normal line flying, you found a switch out of position- it was normally accompanied by a "deferred item" decal and a logbook entry to explain why the item was non-functional or intentionally out of position.

 

All of that being said- we have have something coming that will take the entire concept much much further down the road.

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Aren't maintainance personell supposed to put certain switches back into their regular positions? Most of the switches aren't even part of the pre-flight check, so those could be easily overlooked. Secondly, it seems counterproductive for an airline if the maintainance personell do their maintainance and subsequently make a "mess" of the cockpit by leaving switches in unusual positions.

 

Indeed they are supposed to do just that but they do sometimes fiddle around with things and then don't put them back. Hence why the flight deck safety check is so important. 

 

I save the flight deck state at the end of each return leg. When I next fire up the sim - even in a different place on a different day - I choose one of my many saved turnaround states to load up in. Although the switches *should* be in the correct/same place (well we are Airline2Sim!) the remaining fuel is always different, as is the ZFW on board and all the other variables that make each flight different.  

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In the other 744 sim I use we even have to pay attention to the whole set of CBs when making the initial cockpit check... One never knows... and it can bring some really nasty surprises.

 

That, combined with a very well designed random malfunction generator, for different phases of the flight, allowing to set with great detail the "probablitiies" of failures, can really bring huge immersion to an otherwise boring flight...

 

I'd like to see features like these in X-Plane or FSX add-ons too.

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Ok,i'll put my thoughts on this one from a maintenance view point.

From a sim viewpoint it would certainly make setting up a flight more interesting,but from a reality point,not very realistic.

If we are carrying out flight deck tests then they're done iaw the a/c maint manuals,and therefore at the close up part of the tests, the manuals tell you what panel state they should be left in,this includes CB's which are not generally used in sims.

While mistakes are made (we're all human) WE are signing to say that tasks have been carried out as per the a/c maint manual,so it's less likely that switches are left in the wrong position because we can be hung for it!!.

If anything is in the wrong positions it's usually CB's

So in the almost 35 years as a licenced engineer 40 doing the job, i've found the following with flight deck switch positions,last flight of day and late arrival. fuel pumps still running,emergency lights left armed,batteries left on,irs/adiru's left aligned hydraulic pumps on,window heating still on.

These are ALL flight crew that have left them in wrong positions in a hurry to get home ( or the bar!)

So are we simming to be realistic? If the answer is yes then things should remain the same with a standard cold and dark, or for added entertainment the inclusion of random switch positions

From a personal point of view I would love the inclusion of CB's that pop causing problems, but appreciate thats unlikely due to added proccesing power and memory issues.

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Flying the line, it is exceedingly rare to find something "out of position" during the course of normal operations.

 

It is not so much about actually finding something, but more about the possibility of it happening, however small it may be.

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It is not so much about actually finding something, but more about the possibility of it happening, however small it may be.

 

you could just save the flight at the last destination flown to and continue on from that airport/gate next time ! only caveat is you will start at the last landed airport/gate :D ,you can then move the aircraft after that to your desired starting point.

 

By doing so ,

 

1) the chances of human error, ( that human who could cause such an error ,forgetting to put switches back in their right position,would be you ) ,are 'likely' to go up .

 

2) large number of fluid stats , such as hyd qty, eng oil qty etc would require replacement more often due to frequently using the same plane ...

 

its one way of getting close to realistic :D

 

 

All of that being said- we have have something coming that will take the entire concept much much further down the road.

 

 

hmmm, some really cool maintenance features :P ??

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you could just save the flight at the last destination flown to and continue on from that airport/gate next time

 

That's a good idea and nice workaround. I'm a human being, and thus make mistakes, so I may even find something.

 

What I am still missing from PMDG is to have truly random failures (that you don't plan at all by using the events per ten hours option), this would make flying all the more exciting.

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That's a good idea and nice workaround. I'm a human being, and thus make mistakes, so I may even find something.

 

What I am still missing from PMDG is to have truly random failures (that you don't plan at all by using the events per ten hours option), this would make flying all the more exciting.

i kinda wanted that too, random out of the blue failures, but my limited understanding is that it is rare to have such stuff happen in real life,but hey we are in a SIM ,so ya its a good feature to have !

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Gents,

 

The concept of persistence has existed in our products since the release of the 747-400 Queen of the Skies for FS9 back in 2005...

 

Flying the line, it is exceedingly rare to find something "out of position" during the course of normal operations.  About the only time I ever recall finding something not in the anticipated position was picking an airplane up from a D check.

 

If, in the course of normal line flying, you found a switch out of position- it was normally accompanied by a "deferred item" decal and a logbook entry to explain why the item was non-functional or intentionally out of position.

 

All of that being said- we have have something coming that will take the entire concept much much further down the road.

Robert,

 

i wouldnt exactly say its rare for a switch to be oit of position. Like you said, after MX inspections are usually the time when things are out of position. However, due to human error and laziness, usually due to someone rushing off and trying to catch a commute home. I have gotten airplanes that you could easily tell that checklists were not done or were done super quickly and therefor swotches were not in the position they are supposed to be in. Granted, this only happens maybe 10% of the time, but it does happen. Which is, as you know, why there are safety checks.

 

As some said, it does get pretty mundane seeing every switch in its correct position 100% of the time. That in itself isnt that realistic.

 

Having said that, im really interested to see what PMDG has up its sleeves to make this pre flight stuff more interesting and more realistic.

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you could just save the flight at the last destination flown to and continue on from that airport/gate next time ! only caveat is you will start at the last landed airport/gate :D ,you can then move the aircraft after that to your desired starting point.

 

Caution with this... I've found that over time the panel corrupts itself and you'll start to lose click spots. 

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Gents,

 

The concept of persistence has existed in our products since the release of the 747-400 Queen of the Skies for FS9 back in 2005...

 

Flying the line, it is exceedingly rare to find something "out of position" during the course of normal operations.  About the only time I ever recall finding something not in the anticipated position was picking an airplane up from a D check.

 

If, in the course of normal line flying, you found a switch out of position- it was normally accompanied by a "deferred item" decal and a logbook entry to explain why the item was non-functional or intentionally out of position.

 

All of that being said- we have have something coming that will take the entire concept much much further down the road.

Fair enough, but of course, this being a simulation, and not the real thing, occasionally we users like to introduce unrealistic challenges purely for the fun of it.  In any case, I would imagin part of the reason such mistakes rarely happen is that in modern aircraft there are so few switches to begin with.  Now if PMDG were to make a 742 (boy that wouldn't that be fun), then we would have something to talk about.  Surely in an old analog 3-man flight deck like that such anomalies must have occurred a tad more frequently.

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Caution with this... I've found that over time the panel corrupts itself and you'll start to lose click spots. 

sheesh ! i am trying this method (saving flts) with fslabs a320 as well and after a few saves , the anomalies begin ..

 

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Didn't the Greek Helios 737 crash because the maintenance crews left the air packs off and eventually everyone passed out - including the flight crew? 

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Didn't the Greek Helios 737 crash because the maintenance crews left the air packs off and eventually everyone passed out - including the flight crew?

 

IIRC the aircraft had suffered a pressurisation issue on the previous sector and the engineers left the switch in the manual position, rather than return it to 'AUTO' after their work was complete.

 

The crew failed to notice the switch position during the preflight and then misidentified the altitude warning horn for the takeoff configuration horn (!) once climbing through FL180. A maintenance controller warned the crew over the radio to check the pack selector, but by this time the crew were already hypoxic and made no attempt to change the switch position.

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Well, randomeness isn't really the way to go but I really like the idea. A2A, for example, have the option for persistent aircraft states, which means that the aircraft, including all switches, fuid levels, possible failures etc. is in the same state as you left it the flight before and closed the sim. If you forget to do the proper shutdown procedure, and checklist, for instance, it'll still be in the same state that you left it in. 

Having that in mind maybe PMDG could realize such a system...unless simply saving the panel state before you leave the aircraft does the trick...but who has time for that anyway... :rolleyes:

This can already be done in the NGX and 777. There is a saved panel state called "Previous Flight.fxml" that automatically saves the panel state as you leave it when you shut down FSX/P3D. If you set this to default panel state in the FMC setup menu, it will load the aircraft the way you left it behind on your last flight ;).

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This can already be done in the NGX and 777. There is a saved panel state called "Previous Flight.fxml" that automatically saves the panel state as you leave it when you shut down FSX/P3D. If you set this to default, it will load the aircraft the way you left it behind on your last flight ;).

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's a part of FSUIPC autosave which subsequently saves a panel state. 

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