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No thread on P3Dv4 basically being confirmed to be 64bit and coming in 2017?

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Surprised there's no a discussion.

JV's (Orbx) comments about "Project P" in his 2017 road map have basically confirmed it. P3Dv4 will be 64bit and it is coming in 2017. I know Rob has dropped some hints as well via his denials :smile:

 

Not sure if JV unwittingly broke the NDA or not, but his comments leave little room left for speculation.

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Think we all knew it was coming, the question is just when in 2017...

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It's been on the horizon for quite a while, which is why I've only bought two addons this year. 

 

I truly hope they will break backwards compatibility this time and make some major changes, but I fear it's mostly recompiled code and that we're still stuck with 2006 graphics in DX11 dressing. 

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I really hope developers will offer a free or at least small fee upgrade to existed customers. It makes no sense to me to sell a different license for a P3D 64 bit upgrade. 

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I wish to have DX12 as an option or even as a preview mode as was with FSX, using latest graphics technology is ultimate goal with modern games/simulations (I think).

 

Ali

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...which is why I've only bought two addons this year. 

 

 

That's what I've been saying for 3 or 4 months now. I'm not buying any new P3d addons until the FS market shakes out, which may take 6 months.  Having all this "diversity" in  flight sim choices is somewhat of an illusion.

 

I know that I am in the minority with this opinion, but I don't see the FS market as rapidly expanding. The flight sim community seems to have five components:

  1. Very casual simmers who buy something like FSX-SE, play around with the sim with for a week or two and never use it again. 
  2. Licensed pilots and ex-pilots who like to  flight sim as a hobby.
  3. Pilot training facilities
  4. Hobbyists who can't keep up with advances in the technology because their hardware doesn't support taking full advanatge of the new technology.
  5. Dedicated hobbyist flight simmers who tend to be on the cutting edge of the technology

Group 2 is small and getting smaller every year as newly licensed pilots aren't making up for either those that aren't current or have left the profession entirely. Group 3 is also very small and probably isn't growing either. I suspect that Group 1 is the largest group and they probably don't have the protracted attention span to buy a lot of addons for whatever sim that they are using.  Group 4 seems like the next biggest group to me. That leaves Group 5, which is probably the audience at AVSim, X-Plane.org, ORBX, etc.. Although I can see VR causing this last audience to grow over the next decade, the present state of VR (both the technology and the added cost) will cause it to not be a short term factor in the growth of the flight sim market.

 

So, now we have potentially four flight sims competing for a very small market, not to mention that a number of people in the community  don't have high end hardware to take advantage of all the new features in even the present flight sims. It's both a good thing and a bad thing. It wasn't coincidental that JV's post was initially interpreted as an acronym:

 

http://www.avsim.com/topic/499655-some-interesting-info-from-the-2017-orbx-roadmap/?p=3527380

 

And while we're on the topic of John Venema's "crystal ball". Read here:

 

http://www.avsim.com/topic/465561-no-64-bit-p3d-coming-according-to-orbxs-john-venema/

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In my mind the four flight sims are not competitive at all. If you are not a VFR simmer, I really cannot understand how someone can select anything else than FSX or P3D. All major quality payware airliners and airport sceneries are made for these two platforms. The only one I'd appreciate in XP is the IXEG 737, though a retired now aircraft. I would never go to any platform where I cannot fly a 737NG, 777 of PMDG quality, an A320 of FSLabs quality and a Q400 of Majestic quality. But even for VFR which XP company can beat A2A? Let alone ORBX. I never found a reason to go to XP and I don't understand really how people move to XP just because its 64bit. I'm reloading the flight before T/D and I never have an OOM. It takes 1-2 minutes on an SSD. Now, if you are a VFR simmer, then maybe. Maybe all the debate is from VFR simmers and that's more understandable to me, though I don't think XP has the quality payware airports that FSX/P3D has at the moment. 64bit P3D will finally make it the only choice and those who left for x64 bit to XP will return. That's my guess. 

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I would never go to any platform where I cannot fly a 737NG, 777 of PMDG quality, an A320 of FSLabs quality and a Q400 of Majestic quality. But even for VFR which XP company can beat A2A?

 

THIS.

 

Spot on. 

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In my mind the four flight sims are not competitive at all. If you are not a VFR simmer, I really cannot understand how someone can select anything else than FSX or P3D. All major quality payware airliners and airport sceneries are made for these two platforms. The only one I'd appreciate in XP is the IXEG 737, though a retired now aircraft. I would never go to any platform where I cannot fly a 737NG, 777 of PMDG quality, an A320 of FSLabs quality and a Q400 of Majestic quality. But even for VFR which XP company can beat A2A? Let alone ORBX. I never found a reason to go to XP and I don't understand really how people move to XP just because its 64bit. I'm reloading the flight before T/D and I never have an OOM. It takes 1-2 minutes on an SSD. Now, if you are a VFR simmer, then maybe. Maybe all the debate is from VFR simmers and that's more understandable to me, though I don't think XP has the quality payware airports that FSX/P3D has at the moment. 64bit P3D will finally make it the only choice and those who left for x64 bit to XP will return. That's my guess.

 

People are not using XP just because it's 64bit.

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People are not using XP just because it's 64bit.

I've seen countless posts here of people smiling for not having OOM problems anymore. It should be one of the reasons. The other should be the lighting engine. Visuals are impressive but not perfect. Clouds and shadows are not as good as in P3D. But again what someone gets coming to XP11 to simulate airliner flights? An old Boeing airliner. That's all I see. Cause everything else is far behind the PMDG, FSLabs, Majestic, A2A, QualityWings standards...in both visuals and complexity. So, all this fuss with XP is for nice vanilla atmospheric/lighting effects and sloped runways. I wouldn't move from my P3D advanced -aircraft simulator- with amazing still visuals to come to a better environment simulator and downgrade my aircraft simulation experience. And I wouldn't move to a platform and start checking the forums every day and praying from day one PMDG, FSLabs or Majestic or FlyTampa or Flightbeam or many other good developers  to make something for XP. If I see a torrent of add-ons being made for XP from these companies then I'd think again if I see a potential over P3D. Until then its all speculations. XP add-ons leave me completely uninterested for now.

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64 bit only solves VAS issues - nothing more. In fact, when you talk to programmers, there is a real risk of things slowing down in terms of fps. I also fear we'll see a lot of poorly optimized addons on the market with high resolution textures on high polygon count 3D models that will turn P3D into a slideshow.

 

But I don't say that to be negative. I welcome the development. Scenery is to me just as important as the aircraft, and we've been at the limits of a what a 32 bit flight sim can do for a long time. It's just a matter of being picky about the third party devs you chose to support.

 

The onyl downside to this development is that my wife is going to be ###### when I order a new $5000 PC next year...

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Having got OSM and VFR imagery working in X-Plane, that really is the standard platform for VFR IMO - detailed satellite imagery overlaid with every (almost!) road and building in it's right place in the world creates a stunning visual experience that simply cannot be bettered.

 

But for flying high in a bizjet or airliner into a detailed airport, P3D is still the platform. The weather in X-Plane still looks terrible to my eyes, even in XP11.

 

Ideal scenario for me would be a 64-bit version of P3D with OSM based autogen laid over satellite images.

 

X-Plane still seems to just perform better at far higher scenery density and distance settings than P3D on my PC though, is this indicative of P3D's reliance on CPU over GPU still?

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Surprised there's no a discussion.

 

JV's (Orbx) comments about "Project P" in his 2017 road map have basically confirmed it. P3Dv4 will be 64bit and it is coming in 2017. I know Rob has dropped some hints as well via his denials :smile:

 

Not sure if JV unwittingly broke the NDA or not, but his comments leave little room left for speculation.

Not so fast! OrBX already provided the terrain for Dovetail Flight School which is 64bit. They may be talking about integration of their scenery into DFS which is also 64bit and due in 2017.

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I feel that we should be moving forward towards an environment where those who choose the Prepar3D route expect to pay a reasonable amount for top-end software providing exclusively the best simming experience from LM.

 

Absent from much of the previous posts is that LM is a major company servicing primarily the world's defence industries and their training needs. Simmers like ourselves may be a very useful testing ground for LM's developments but cannot be very important in LM's revenue streams.

 

That said, I would like to see regular software updates to Prepar3D so as to keep it at the leading (not bleeding) edge of simming. I would also like to see P3D having automatic software updates so that everyone is using the latest versions, and we get away from the current spread of software stages in use. Then we could leave the Dovetail and FSX market to play to the simpler levels of the simming market, and enjoy an exploitation of so many of the newer computing technologies now available..

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Not so fast! OrBX already provided the terrain for Dovetail Flight School which is 64bit. They may be talking about integration of their scenery into DFS which is also 64bit and due in 2017.

 

It would not suprise me if this is it ...

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I wonder if P3D going to 64 bit will make a lot of people move to XP. I expect one has to repurchase quite a few addons for P3D 64 bit so you might say that in a sense you will be starting over again. And I do think that the simmers who are NOT only into this hobby because of systems depth but who also like to look out of the window will find XP a more attractive platform. I certainly do. The fact that Orbx is coming to XP might also have an influence here. Orbx to XP might mean more developers to XP. Besides, XP is made for simmers like us and the price is that of a regular game. P3D is not made for simmers: we are just lucky being able to use it (which may change at any time) and officially it costs a lot more (although most people buy the academic license no matter what). 

 

Anyway, I haven't touched P3D after installing XP11 anymore and if P3D goes 64 bit with v4 I am almost certain I won't be buying it: for me that would be a good reason to completely switch to XP. Even though it currently has less depth when it comes to the airplanes.


Not so fast! OrBX already provided the terrain for Dovetail Flight School which is 64bit. They may be talking about integration of their scenery into DFS which is also 64bit and due in 2017.

 

 

No, they aren't only talking about just that. They will start creating addons for Aerofly, Dovetail, P3D and XP. No one knows what kind of addons this will be, probably different ones for different platforms, but they will aim at all flightsims in 2017.

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It would be great if X-Plane got more support and could afford a bigger staff and more innovation.

 

It is also great that P3D is evolving independently of typical AVSIM-ers at the expense of commercial/gouvernmental users.

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Daedalus, on 15 Dec 2016 - 4:59 PM, said:

I really hope developers will offer a free or at least small fee upgrade to existed customers.

That will be the sting in the tail. People will have to suck it up, because I can see it happening. I won't be free

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Yes, we will be getting a 64bit P3D in the future. Confirmed by 64bit add-on developers!

 

Re... 'I really hope developers will offer a free or at least small fee upgrade to existed customers. It makes no sense to me to sell a different license for a P3D 64 bit upgrade.

 

"Do you get a free update from Office 2013 to 2016? A 64bit version of the sim should be considered as a totally new sim, & it could be a bonus to us simmers if 'old' 32bit add-ons will work!

 

 

Re: I know that I am in the minority with this opinion, but I don't see the FS market as rapidly expanding. The flight sim community seems to have five components:

  1. Very casual simmers who buy something like FSX-SE, play around with the sim with for a week or two and never use it again. 
  2. Licensed pilots and ex-pilots who like to  flight sim as a hobby.
  3. Pilot training facilities
  4. Hobbyists who can't keep up with advances in the technology because their hardware doesn't support taking full advanatge of the new technology.
  5. Dedicated hobbyist flight simmers who tend to be on the cutting edge of the technology

Group 1, as defined, is probably the Dovetail market -FSX:SE

Group 2 is small and getting smaller every year as newly licensed pilots aren't making up for either those that aren't current or have left the profession entirely. Pure guesswork! "Real Pilots" often use sims to brush up their procedures & nav skills!  

 

Group 3 is also very small and probably isn't growing either. THIS group is actually P3D's target market, NOT us.

​We have just been fortunate that we , the sim hobby fraternity, can, with various justifications, buy the sim!

 

I suspect that Group 1 is the largest group and they probably don't have the protracted attention span to buy a lot of addons for whatever sim that they are using. Just maybe, they would prefer freeware? I think that this comment is a bit elitist. You do NOT have to buy add-ons to be considered a simmer! Freeware developers are the backbone of our hobby!

 

 Group 4 seems like the next biggest group to me. Also, IMHO, an elitist comment! Maybe there are those that, for financial or other reasons cannot, or do not keep up with the latest in technology! I run my 3x versions of FS2004, as well as my P3D on my 6 year old laptop. (I'm sure there are many others just like me), & this certainly does not make me a lessor simmer than those described in Group 5!

 

That leaves Group 5, which is probably the audience at AVSim, X-Plane.org, ORBX, etc.. Although I can see VR causing this last audience to grow over the next decade, the present state of VR (both the technology and the added cost) will cause it to not be a short term factor in the growth of the flight sim market. As I said before,  'dedicated' simmers do not have to have the very latest in PC's (technology, VR etc!) 

 

Richard says: "That said, I would like to see regular software updates to Prepar3D so as to keep it at the leading (not bleeding) edge of simming. I would also like to see P3D having automatic software updates so that everyone is using the latest versions, and we get away from the current spread of software stages in use. Then we could leave the Dovetail and FSX market to play to the simpler levels of the simming market, and enjoy an exploitation of so many of the newer computing technologies now available.." Bear in mind, that Lockheed Martin's target market is not the 'entertainment' simmer, as we well know, no matter how much we justify it! A big NO for auto updates! Look what is happening with Windows 10 updates!

 

​Do not forget that there is also a market for those that do not want or can afford the perfect, fastest & most detailed experience. Not everyone wants to fly by the numbers. Do not forget the casual simmer, just because he does not buy or want the latest PMDG/Orbyx/whatever add-on or 64bit platform.

 

We do not need to be put into, or be classified as a group. We are all simmers, no lessor even if we, dare I say it, are just as happy driving or boating (Deltasim) in our sim. We are no lessor, even if we only support (for various reasons) the many freeware developers that have made our hobby so amazing!   :hi: 

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Just maybe, they would prefer freeware? I think that this comment is a bit elitist. You do NOT have to buy add-ons to be considered a simmer! Freeware developers are the backbone of our hobby!

 

You will be hard pushed to find quality P3D freeware addons. People demand higher fidelity all the time and that doesn;t come cheap anymore. The world has moved on since FS9. Freeware developers certainly were the backbone of FS9 - that is no longer the case with P3D - and will soon not be the case with Xplane

 

 

We do not need to be put into, or be classified as a group. We are all simmers, no lessor even if we, dare I say it, are just as happy driving or boating (Deltasim) in our sim. We are no lessor, even if we only support (for various reasons) the many freeware developers that have made our hobby so amazing!  

 

While I agree with your point there Robin, the sub-groups in our (quite small) community (relative to the GTA crowd) do exist - and it is ultimately the spending power of those groups that will determine where developers go.

 

Unfortunately, high-end tech investment in South Africa these days is becoming less and less affordable as the country spirals into a political abyss, while - generally speaking - in Europe or in the US - high-end tech investment won't break bank in the same way.  But we are no less - or more than each other.  We all love a common denominator.

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Actually I think we're going in circles here. Few statements/thoughts from me:

 

1. There is small amount of active simmers but in meantime they are highly demanding, which leads to point no. 2.

2. Addon market is filled with competition and great addons but is in need of more customers. That is caused by no. 3

3. There is lack of new customers because vanilla sims comparing to modern games are technologically in 20th century and when people see vanilla P3D they still remember FSX times (XPlane 11 has a great chance to change it). To increase popularity of genre, someone needs to make investment. That leads to point no. 4

4. To make sim look great you need to spend thousands on great addons. Which results in point no. 5.

5. When you finally made your sim look great you need to spend thousands on strong CPUs because sim is so CPU dependant, GPUs because there is no proper AA and you need to use SGSAA with most popular full HD resolution and SSD drives because P3D needs fast data access. And that causes what happens in point no. 1.

 

If you think about it, it's not only that flight sims are not popular because people are not interested in flying. Many people were not interested in trucking, yet SCS software managed to put their "simulator" on top 10 sales on Steam. Reason is quite simple - it's more accessible  money wise. You buy base sim for 20 euro, then spend 20 euro on addons and get plethora of high quality freeware mods because it is easily moddable environment.

 

Obviously, you can't compare amount of work going into releasing one truck vs amount of work going into releasing such complex product as e.g. PMDG 737 NGX, but then again, in vanilla we don't get any plane with decent flight characteristics. And funny part is that in case of ETS2 or ATS freeware stuff is usually OP vs payware (check Promods map which covers whole Europe and they do it for free!)

 

So what will happen next? If LM will decide to release 64 bit sim and break compatibility with old addons, but won't offer anything more within the sim, they won't increase popularity of their product above what we they have right now. Offcourse some of us (if not most) will rebuy the sim but I just don't see myself investing 1k bucks in addons again.

 

By breaking compatibility, P3D will loose their main leverage which is availability of great addons and people will start to investigate other options. Not sure if this will be Xplane 11 or not but they will. I would not count on DTG with regards to great base game, as they tend to release Train Simulator each year having almost same content and packing it with expensive addons, so XPlane might be best alternative.

 

Nevertheless, if people won't get "carrot", sales will not increase and flight sims will remain niche (and for the love of god, they are much more interesting and complex than driving a truck).

 

I am not buying anymore addons until I know what is going to happen in future with our flight simming environment. Kudos to LM if they will manage to repair VAS leak in 3.4 as I am not entirely sure when (and if, although I know that ultimately I will jump over this fence) I'm even going to do the switch to 64 bit. And if I will, I'll need something more than 64 bit vanilla with 60 bucks price tag on it.

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By breaking compatibility, P3D will loose their main leverage which is availability of great addons and people will start to investigate other options

That still operates under the doubtful assumption that the serious simming person is a targeted source of significant income for Prepar3d/LM - and that they make product development decisions based on our spending.

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That might be true but how to drag new customers attention? Defo not with vanilla 64 bit fsx based sim (unless it's no longer fsx based)

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That might be true but how to drag new customers attention? Defo not with vanilla 64 bit fsx based sim

 

Without any knowledge of what may/may not be included in the 64 bit platform we can't really comment. I certainly hope a new lighting engine makes a debut.  XP11 seems to be  turning admiring gazes their way -  even with a default platform.

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