bic

upgrade to 16 gig RAM?

Recommended Posts

I presently have 8 gig of DDR3 @ 1600 RAM, should I upgrade to 16?  If I do upgrade, should I get faster memory?  According to my motherboard manufacturer I can go  to 3200.  

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Yes, upgrade. I don't know what kind, but do it. As much and as fast as you can afford.

 

Share this post


Link to post

You might want to have a poke around the hardware forums, lots of good info on ram purchases over there.

Share this post


Link to post

The speed of RAM makes very little difference. You could add 8 more gb of the same RAM you have if you have the slots for it and be quite happy. 

You can add to what you have with a different RAM module but you MUST match timings exactly (and speed of course) AND voltage. I did this recently as the brand I originally bought is no longer made. There's a reason RAM sticks are sold in kits though. 

DDR3 RAM is more expensive than the newer stuff, unfortunately, so upgrading isn't that cheap. I suspect that 8 gb is still sufficient for the new 64-bit P3D. It's VRAM that will be more important. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Griphos said:

The speed of RAM makes very little difference.

This isn't always the case. In CPU intensive applications (like our simulators), faster RAM does help.

I will certainly get the fastest RAM I can afford when I upgrade next time.

Share this post


Link to post

I had your config and alone moving to 2400mhz 16Gb i got 5fps more. That was 15% on my system 

 

Thanks Michael Moe 

Share this post


Link to post

Agree, RAM speed matters.  I saw an improvement when I set up my memory timing for the full DDR4 3400 MHz for which it was rated.  Each part of the system, CPU, memory, video, storage speeds are important but a big increase in one component could possible  not have an effect at all.  It depends on where the constraints or bottlenecks are.  Large memory cache and fetch ahead techniques can help mitigate memory speeds so you may not see a significant improvement but in my case I was able to take advantage of it and did.

Share this post


Link to post

Thread drift to an extent.....

Should he upgrade his actual size of ram from 8gb to 16gb

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Thread drift to an extent.....

Should he upgrade his actual size of ram from 8gb to 16gb

I though the first response answered it.  Yes, if budget allows and possible with his mobo.  Consider Windows 10 without anything else running will use over 3 GB of memory.  I would say 8 GB was the minimum with a 32-bit flight simulator.

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, downscc said:

I though the first response answered it.  Yes, if budget allows and possible with his mobo.  Consider Windows 10 without anything else running will use over 3 GB of memory.  I would say 8 GB was the minimum with a 32-bit flight simulator.

Interesting, I currently have 8gb of ram on w10. So I really only gain 1gb of available RAM going 64bit because I'm limited to my physical RAM. Correct?

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Interesting, I currently have 8gb of ram on w10. So I really only gain 1gb of available RAM going 64bit because I'm limited to my physical RAM. Correct?

No, Windows will start paging memory when you use all your physical memory, which is swapping back and forth to disk and is going to slow things down but you will not run into an OOM.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, downscc said:

No, Windows will start paging memory when you use all your physical memory, which is swapping back and forth to disk and is going to slow things down but you will not run into an OOM.

this stuff is so confusing. thanks for the response though!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

Well, it's particularly confusing when you ask these kinds of technical questions on a flight sim forum and get these kind of answers that are all over the place from people who don't really know what they are talking about.  

Lots and lots of tests (read Tomshardware.com for instance) shows that RAM speed doesn't have much impact on most applications, particularly if you're not using integrated graphics systems (as you might be on a laptop).  Shoot, just do a google search on that.  You certainly wouldn't see a 10 or 15% FPS increase from RAM speed.  Anyone claiming that is subject to confirmation bias and doesn't know how programs interact with hardware, particularly CPU bound programs like FSX.  

Another point is that RAM performance is not just about speed, but also latency, and most RAM with higher speeds also have higher latency, offsetting the speed advantage to some extent.  Most tests show that 8 or 16 gb at 1600 with latency of 8 or 9 is the sweet spot for memory performance.  

And for almost all applications, particularly gaming, getting more than 8 gb of RAM doesn't affect FPS much either.  See, for instance: 

http://www.techspot.com/article/1043-8gb-vs-16gb-ram/

However, with new 64-bit sims and some terrain features generating a lot of scenery in memory, 16 gb future proofs your system to some extent.  If I were building a new system, I would certainly put in 16gb.  Uprading, though....

If you want to upgrade from 8 gb, and don't really know what you're doing, I'd replace the memory you have with new memory (so, say, two 4 gb sticks for two 8 gb sticks).  If you don't know what you're doing, adding memory to existing memory is full of pitfalls.  

1600 or 1866 ghz is fine.  You need to see what your motherboard will handle.  Since you are looking at DDR3, which means an older mb, like the L1155 socket perhaps, you may not be able to handle more than 1600 or 1866 speeds anyway. You'll need to check your mb manual (some can handle higher RAM speeds if you overclock).  

You have a good graphics card.  The next most important thing (and even more important than the graphics card for FSX since it is so CPU bound) is CPU clock speed.  You don't say what your CPU is or its speed.  If you're not at least at 4 ghz on the CPU, adding faster memory will gain nothing for you.  

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Griphos said:

Well, it's particularly confusing when you ask these kinds of technical questions on a flight sim forum and get these kind of answers that are all over the place from people who don't really know what they are talking about.  

Lots and lots of tests (read Tomshardware.com for instance) shows that RAM speed doesn't have much impact on most applications, particularly if you're not using integrated graphics systems (as you might be on a laptop).  Shoot, just do a google search on that.  You certainly wouldn't see a 10 or 15% FPS increase from RAM speed.  Anyone claiming that is subject to confirmation bias and doesn't know how programs interact with hardware, particularly CPU bound programs like FSX.  

Another point is that RAM performance is not just about speed, but also latency, and most RAM with higher speeds also have higher latency, offsetting the speed advantage to some extent.  Most tests show that 8 or 16 gb at 1600 with latency of 8 or 9 is the sweet spot for memory performance.  

And for almost all applications, particularly gaming, getting more than 8 gb of RAM doesn't affect FPS much either.  See, for instance: 

http://www.techspot.com/article/1043-8gb-vs-16gb-ram/

However, with new 64-bit sims and some terrain features generating a lot of scenery in memory, 16 gb future proofs your system to some extent.  If I were building a new system, I would certainly put in 16gb.  Uprading, though....

If you want to upgrade from 8 gb, and don't really know what you're doing, I'd replace the memory you have with new memory (so, say, two 4 gb sticks for two 8 gb sticks).  If you don't know what you're doing, adding memory to existing memory is full of pitfalls.  

1600 or 1866 ghz is fine.  You need to see what your motherboard will handle.  Since you are looking at DDR3, which means an older mb, like the L1155 socket perhaps, you may not be able to handle more than 1600 or 1866 speeds anyway. You'll need to check your mb manual (some can handle higher RAM speeds if you overclock).  

You have a good graphics card.  The next most important thing (and even more important than the graphics card for FSX since it is so CPU bound) is CPU clock speed.  You don't say what your CPU is or its speed.  If you're not at least at 4 ghz on the CPU, adding faster memory will gain nothing for you.  

 

"people who don't really know what they're talking about"...

...Goes on to cite zero flight sim benchmarks (i.e. nothing relevant to the topic) whilst making specific claims as to potential performance delta not even approaching 10-15%

51 pages of hard data that say otherwise

I'm all for people in this community asking questions, reading, researching, testing, tweaking, and helping others.  I try to engage in all of those activities myself.  I take issue though when someone presents their opinion as fact when they clearly have not done the same. The intention may be to help another, but if you're giving wrong information the effect is the opposite.  

Share this post


Link to post

51 pages of hard data....lol.  You and I have very different ideas about what constitutes "hard data."  

Show me where it shows that higher RAM speed makes a significant difference.

And what exactly did I suggest that you disagree with (other than that some people don't know what they're talking about, which is certainly the case)?  What is the "wrong information" I gave, and what is the proof that it is wrong?

And explain to me how a flight sim is so significantly different from other video games that test results are meaningless unless they are testing flight sims. 

I'm not presenting anything as fact.  And I'm encouraging the OP to do some real research, not take the word of whoever happens to respond to this thread, including me.  One difference, though, is that I give reasons for my suggestions.  I don't just say, do it, it's good, or don't do it, it's bad.  Not something you can say about most responses.  

Once he does, I think he'll find that the consensus is a lot closer to what I said in this thread than most of the rest of the responses.

And how have I "clearly not" read, researched, tested?  I'm responding to this thread precisely to "help," and most particularly help someone not spend money they don't need to spend just because some other people tell him to without giving any good reasons for their claims.  

What you appear to take exception to is me.  I doubt you really read my post past the reference to some people not knowing what they are talking about, which everyone knows is in fact the case.  It would be silly to deny it.  You need to let go of your grudge.   

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

I got 8 at the moment and will be holding off adding another 8 for the time being.  I'll keep an eye on my memory usage and decide from there.  Until I see the actual numbers for my configuration and add-ons, I'm not spending $$$'s.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

FSX and P3D are completely different from all other video games. Ram speed does make a difference and a significant difference. You will see far far less long frames (ie STUTTERS)  in FSX or P3D with fast DRAM. The best way to put it is that the more powerful you hardware the higher you FPS will be a particular setting. But you use bog standard 1600mhz DRAM with that hardware even at you high FPS you will get a lot of long frames and therefore stutters. With all the same hardware and faster memory you will get the same FPS but less long frames and therefore less stutters. Fast memory is you best friend against long frames so long as you are reasonable with everything else. I have 2400mhz at CL9 and I am sure that it makes a big difference.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Griphos said:

51 pages of hard data....lol.  You and I have very different ideas about what constitutes "hard data."  

Show me where it shows that higher RAM speed makes a significant difference.

And what exactly did I suggest that you disagree with (other than that some people don't know what they're talking about, which is certainly the case)?  What is the "wrong information" I gave, and what is the proof that it is wrong?

And explain to me how a flight sim is so significantly different from other video games that test results are meaningless unless they are testing flight sims. 

I'm not presenting anything as fact.  And I'm encouraging the OP to do some real research, not take the word of whoever happens to respond to this thread, including me.  One difference, though, is that I give reasons for my suggestions.  I don't just say, do it, it's good, or don't do it, it's bad.  Not something you can say about most responses.  

Once he does, I think he'll find that the consensus is a lot closer to what I said in this thread than most of the rest of the responses.

And how have I "clearly not" read, researched, tested?  I'm responding to this thread precisely to "help," and most particularly help someone not spend money they don't need to spend just because some other people tell him to without giving any good reasons for their claims.  

What you appear to take exception to is me.  I doubt you really read my post past the reference to some people not knowing what they are talking about, which everyone knows is in fact the case.  It would be silly to deny it.  You need to let go of your grudge.   

 

10% perf. gain for fast DDR3 over baseline 1333/1600.  Same again for DDR4.  Real gains are in the minimum FPS numbers.  In FSXMark I used to get minimum FPS in the 30s and average in the 50s.  Now, with a marginally faster CPU but MUCH faster RAM my minimum FPS is where my average used to be.  

The data is all in that thread.  

Your intimation that you're "helping" someone not to spend more money is laughable.  Faster RAM is a marginal cost difference.  Your advice, if followed, would rob someone of potentially needed performance at very low cost increase.  

I have no idea what "grudge" you're talking about.  You have how many posts here and have been here how long?  I can't even recall interacting with you before.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

Its all about latency, and not necessarily ram speed...period!!!

I agree with Griphos.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post

You guys are hilarious.  

Data doesn't get generated by self reporting random people under uncontrolled settings.  That's called "noise" in the profession.  Your "data" is a bunch of guys reporting things that you can't even be sure results from them following the directions fastidiously, and even if they did, it's a bunch of reports.  There's not a single instance in the results that I can see of any controlled test before and after single changes to hardware.  

DDR3, because it is old tech, is far from inexpensive now (at least $60 for 8 gb more from a decent maker, and significantly more than that if he buys a new 16gb kit).  And you still haven't shown any CLEAR evidence that RAM speed ALONE makes any difference whatsoever.  

Avidean's post is the perfect example of people cobbling together stories about processes they don't in any way understand.  "Long frames" ??? from DRAM speed??!  Completely different from every other video game?!?!  Please!

I remember now why it is I participate so rarely on this forum.  There's a kind of cult here.  I suppose that's what chasing performance on a 10 year old badly coded application will do to people...turn them into a kind of fanatic.  Oh, and I've been here since 2009.  About 3 months less than you.  I just don't blather on all the time.  

Anyway, the OP has a range of answers to choose from now.  He can do what he wants, but if he buys some marginally faster RAM and wonders where his performance gains are, he can't blame me.  On the up side, if he does upgrade at some expense maybe he'll convince himself that things are better through placebo effect, like some of the rest of you.  

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post

I just ordered 16GB, up from 8Gb, hoping to OC these to 2133Mhz per ram specification. But considering I'm running an older Asus Z77 Mobo with 2700K OC to 4.6Ghz, I'll be happy to get 1866Mhz.  Better than nothing I guess. I'm really thinking our GPU's will be biggest determining factor on performance going forward. 

Share this post


Link to post

I currently have 8GB 2400 Mhz in my current build. Couldn't be happier. It's all about CAS latency, for ESP platforms anyway. 

On another note: If people are going to be running 4K resolution on every product they have, (Within a 64bit sim), then more than 8GB would be beneficial. I don't run 4k, so keeping my current P3D V3.4 settings the same in V4 should be totally fine (with regards to VAS). To be frank, VAS isn't something you have to worry about in a 64bit environment. The new issue will be with the physical memory you have available in your PC. 

Cheers,

Share this post


Link to post

Humm, I would comment more in dept, but it was just make this already troubled thread, more troubled. 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Controversial topic...

i don't think you can extrapolate from benchmarks on Toms Hardware etc as to what will happen with Prepar3d. Not many modern shooters based on engines from over a decade ago.

 

ideally, some scientific benchmarks would be great, but failing that I do value the reports of members of the community who have assessed the performance of THIS specific program after hardware changes.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, SolRayz said:

I just ordered 16GB, up from 8Gb, hoping to OC these to 2133Mhz per ram specification. But considering I'm running an older Asus Z77 Mobo with 2700K OC to 4.6Ghz, I'll be happy to get 1866Mhz.  Better than nothing I guess. I'm really thinking our GPU's will be biggest determining factor on performance going forward. 

I've also got a P8Z77-V PRO. And it states that the below.  I'm guess the max I can put in is 32gig at 2600 speed?

Memory

4 x DIMM, Max. 32GB, DDR3 2600(O.C.)/2400(O.C.)/2200(O.C.)/2133(O.C.)/2000(O.C.)/1866(O.C.)/1800(O.C.)/1600/1333 MHz Non-ECC, Un-buffered Memory 
Dual Channel Memory Architecture 
Supports Intel® Extreme Memory Profile (XMP)
* Hyper DIMM support is subject to the physical characteristics of individual CPUs. 
* Refer to www.asus.com or user manual for the Memory QVL (Qualified Vendors Lists).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.