Chock

Amelia Earhart new theory

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Thanks Cock. Very interesting. I'll be sure to set up my DVR for this one.

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22 minutes ago, Chock said:

Apparently a photograph has turned up which possibly shows Fred Noonan and Amelia Earhart on a jetty in the Marshall Islands with what may be their Lockheed Electra visible in the background on a barge being towed by a Japanese freighter. Investigators may have found some aircraft parts too:

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/07/history_channel_photo_shows_am_1.html

I saw this this morning. It seems very plausible. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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I've been pretty resistant to the recent Earhart theories but this sounds much more authoritative.  Thanks for the heads-up - going to go set up my DVR now.

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Any photos of the long, lost Malaysian airliner too while we're at it?

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1 hour ago, garrett_frank said:

Any photos of the long, lost Malaysian airliner too while we're at it?

That was my first thought... but the short video (linked in Chock's post) makes it look like there's something to this.  Michael Beschloss tweeted the photo today - he's very responsible about lining up evidence.  So I'm paying attention in spite of myself.

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You would think someone in Japan would be able to verify this theory by now. Unconditional surrender in 1945 and a very good US relationship since, and yet still tight lips, if anyone knows anything they are free to talk about it. Interesting photograph though

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If she and Fred were spying (no proof) then both governments may have buried evidence and documents.

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History Channel, and other like it, have a penchant for promoting bogus stories.  "Hunting ######" was one of the most ridiculous series yet.  I wouldn't get too drawn in.

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21 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

History Channel, and other like it, have a penchant for promoting bogus stories.  "Hunting ######" was one of the most ridiculous series yet.  I wouldn't get too drawn in.

Agreed. Load of crap. Could be Kupang or Bandung or anywhere near by during numerous stop offs.

When can we just let History be? - without an agenda of destruction/ mutilation/ modification until we rewrite it with what suits our seemingly insatiable appetite for sensationalism (and daytime TV).

We're losing ourselves as human, sentient, living beings. Stop now. Let History be History.

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26 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

History Channel, and other like it, have a penchant for promoting bogus stories.

Totally agree.  But one fact for sure:  I was born in the same city as Amelia - Atchison, Kansas!  Stories about her life and achievements have always been of interest.  I would like to know how they found this photo buried in the National Archives and then put two and two together and saw Amelia who does not appear to be under any restraints.  Oh well!  Conspiracy theories work and it will get everyone minds off of some of the news stories about bad reporting.

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2 hours ago, ytzpilot said:

You would think someone in Japan would be able to verify this theory by now. Unconditional surrender in 1945 and a very good US relationship since, and yet still tight lips, if anyone knows anything they are free to talk about it. Interesting photograph though

Well there is that, however, secrets are secrets and if there was anything untoward or secret going on, then it remains a possibility that people are either not around to tell the tale, or not in a position to confirm it for a number of reasons.

When I say not in a position to do so, I don't just mean from a 'secret agent' standpoint; where Japan is concerned, the reluctance to elaborate on the past can also be from a social standpoint. Japanese culture is still very much one where ancestors are revered and worshipped, and whilst the Japanese no longer officially regard the Emperor as a deity, much store is still held in traditions and honourable memories. This is not the sole reason but is one nevertheless why Japan has on ocassion been slow to apportion blame to questionable military actions in and prior to WW2. Their military did do some appalling things in South East Asia and this is still a bone of contention with some nations which were on the receiving end of those actions. In Japan, we've seen this result in such things as revisionist school text books and the continuing existence of shrines to those who quite clearly were responsible for some very bad things.

Many of these actions during (and prior to) WW2 are regarded as Class A war crimes, and crucially where this is concerned, much of this was sanctioned by the then Emperor, who had to sign off on permitting such operations. This being the case, it becomes awkward both politically and socially to distance oneself from such matters in a culture where tradition and respect of elders and ancestors is a major big deal, especially among Japan's elite. To be fair to the Japanese elite, not everyone among them has perpetuated this, some have openly questioned it in fact, but they have often been a minority.

It's also no secret (or at least it was a very badly kept one) that the US was already indulging in fighting against Japan prior to their entry into what would become known as WW2, when they assisted Chiang Kai-shek in fighting against the Japanese, most famously by the creation of what is commonly known as the 'Flying Tigers', more properly called the First American Volunteer Group. It's worth noting here that the 1st AVG was sanctioned by Franklin Roosevelt in an unpublished Executive Order, and of course with Curtiss and a number of other aircraft manufacturers building and supplying the aircraft for the AVG and the US military allowing officers to leave their roles to go and fly and service those aeroplanes, this was more than a mere gesture.

So you've got both the US head of state and the Japanese head of state up to some dodgy dealings and a good many people from numerous nations also involved in such matters. And they weren't the only ones either; if we recall that the AVG first mustered on an RAF airbase, then you've also got the British head of state sanctioning the thing as well, not to mention the British Government allowing aircraft made by Curtiss and originally slated for the European war effort to be diverted to SE Asia instead of to the RAF who had originally placed the orders, and this whilst they were busy fighting the Germans and needed every warplane they could get their hands on. Thus it was no real surprise to many when matters eventually escalated into the US being drawn into WW2 following the attack on Pearl Harbor, since things had been boiling under for a long time, what with the Japanese-led co-prosperity sphere rubbing the US, Brits and French up the wrong way for years prior to WW2 kicking off, and all three of those nations either covertly or overtly opposing it. Which is one of the reasons why it has been suggested on more than one occasion that the British had intercepted details of the forthcoming attack on Pearl Harbor and kept that information to themselves, since Churchill undeniably wanted the US to come into WW2 as a combatant.

With all of this going on, the notion that secret missions and all kinds of clandestine deals being made, is no stretch of the imagination at all, and that being the case, we may actually never know the truth. Now of course none of this means that Noonan and Earhart were on some kind of secret mission, nor does it mean they managed to land on some Pacific atoll instead of simply running out of gas owing to questionable trust in the radio navigation capabilities of the time and coming down in the Pacific never to be seen again, as most people suppose. But if they did end up as Japanese captives and died as a result of such captivity, then it would indeed be another awkward bit of history the Japanese would prefer remained unknown, quite possibly the US Government might prefer it that way too, because as is also the case, we know that much of the reason they did not push for the same kind of prosecution of war crimes accusations as was the case with Germany, was because the US were keen to get the Japanese on board with opposing the spread of communism throughout the south east Asian continent, as indeed were the French too, given that they were trying to wrestle back their pre-war empire in those parts which had been taken by the Japanese in WW2 and then fallen into communist hands (once again aided covertly by the US prior to their overt actions in the Vietnam war). So who knows what kind of deals might have been struck in relation to that?

Of course another possibility exists, one which conspiracy theorists in particular will love to promote, not that this makes it completely unfeasible, and that is, since the US and Japan were covertly fighting one another as early as 1937 during the second Sino-Japanese war, it would have suited the more belicose types in the US Government quite well, if looking for a pretext for more overt action against Japan, to have one of their national heroines taken out by the Japanese, or even simply for people to believe this might be a possibility. Given that they would have been aware of such activities and the dangers they posed to a prominent American celebrity flying through a war zone, albeit a largely unspoken one at the time, they must have been aware of the possibility at least, and if so, could cetainly have put pressure on Earhart not to make the flight. If this was even a remote possibility, certainly anyone involved in such a notion would want it to remain a secret.

Whatever the truth, even if it is simply that Earhart and Noonan went off course and ditched in the Pacific and drowned, then it is still interesting to speculate on other possibilities, and if the photograph which prompted all this is proved to be a reliable source and not merely a bit of Photoshop, then one can only wonder.

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Lots to think about, It is possible that after the unconditional surrender in 1945 the US government preferred the truth buried if this theory is true, and at that time the US Government were in full control of all affairs. I don't see any reason for Japan to remain tight lipped after this much time with the exception that they agreed to bury it. 

Or, they simply ran out of fuel, ditched at sea, clung onto the sinking Electra for as long as they could, tread water in the hope someone would come, then disappeared beneath the waves. That will always be my theory unless something else conclusive comes along.

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That's quite the history lesson, Chock. An unfortunate series of events in a very troubled time. I don't think either nation, US or Japan, is too keen on losing face in this case.

 

Now, can you tell us what they did with Elvis?  LOL! :biggrin:

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Speaking of Elvis Sightings, if she did survive, she was moved to Rochester, New York under a new identity and retired with Louise Brooks :biggrin:

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14 minutes ago, Jazzfan said:

That's quite the history lesson, Chock. An unfortunate series of events in a very troubled time. I don't think either nation, US or Japan, is too keen on losing face in this case.

 

Now, can you tell us what they did with Elvis?  LOL! :biggrin:

Elvis merely left the building.

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DOH! I fell in to that one didn't!  :blink:  :laugh:

 

Cheers, Jazz

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Does this mean the TIGHAR crew will no longer be taking trips to exotic, Pacific islands?

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You know, ditching in a swelling ocean is no easy thing. Water can be hard as rock if hit at the wrong angle or onto a wave. Plane could have broken apart and went straight down with them in it. What I think for what it's worth.

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1 hour ago, PATCO LCH said:

You know, ditching in a swelling ocean is no easy thing. Water can be hard as rock if hit at the wrong angle or onto a wave. Plane could have broken apart and went straight down with them in it. What I think for what it's worth.

Very true, but if I was making the film, they would have slipped peacefully beneath the waves, holding out for hope until the very last minute. Only those two know the truth if they did in fact run out of fuel.

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Yup, not forgetting that ditching would be even harder to successfully accomplish in poor visibility, and there is a distinct possibility that if they were trying to ditch the Electra, they may also have been doing so in darkness or failing light. If that was the case, there's a good chance they'd have simply cracked up on hitting the water.

Whilst undeniably gutsy, determined, and a genuine inspiration to women at the time, there can be little doubt that Earhart is more famous for simply 'being a flyer' rather than being an especially brilliant one, as evidenced by her initial fame having been gained as a passenger on board an aeroplane which crossed the Atlantic, being the first woman to do so. Without a doubt, the far less well known, but consumately skillful female pilot of that same era, and a friend of Earhart, was Jackie Cochran, who of course eventually went on to become the first woman pilot to break Mach 1 amongst a string of other records and accolades throughout her life as very brave and determined flyer of civilian and military aircraft.

In contrast to the great skill of Cochran, Earhart is known to have had quite a few prangs, most famously damaging her Lockheed Electra on the first attempt she made at circumnavigation, ground-looping it when setting off, causing damage severe enough to require its return to the factory for major repairs. Some claim the accident was caused by a burst tire, but no less a pilot than Paul Mantz, who witnessed the crash, was firmly convinced it had been a case of pilot error, and he was familiar with her flying abilities, having given her a number of lessons in the past and having flown on board that same Electra into the airfield where that crash subsequently occurred three days prior to the incident. Of course anyone can have a mishap in an aeroplane, and especially one with an additional non-standard fuel tank in the fuselage which would have been presumably fairly full, but it is nevertheless indicative of possibly less than brilliant piloting skills, and it would indeed have required both skill and luck in copious amounts to dead-stick an Electra onto the ocean in total darkness.

But needless to say, we will likely never know the full story and I may be doing Amelia a disservice. For all I know, she might have pulled off the best dead stick water landing ever. Who knows?

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14 hours ago, ytzpilot said:

Very true, but if I was making the film, they would have slipped peacefully beneath the waves, holding out for hope until the very last minute. Only those two know the truth if they did in fact run out of fuel.

With a last kiss on cold lips with "In the arms of the angels" playing in the back ground.

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I find this theory unlikely, the given photo shows two individuals with there backs to us.  Sure they may have a similarity to Earhart and Noonan, from the back, in a grainy photograph.  The biggest reason I see to say no is that they are just sitting there, they are not under guard in any way.

While its possible the Japanese wished to cover up that the captured Earhart, after December 7, 41 the US government would not.  She would be a hero of the war and would be great propaganda.  Certainly after the end of the war there would be no reason to continue hiding it and it would have been revealed by now, our government's records are still very much intact.

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6 hours ago, PATCO LCH said:

With a last kiss on cold lips with "In the arms of the angels" playing in the back ground.

Yes definitely, and we are going to cast Leonardo Dicrapio as Fred Noonan and Kate Winsit as Amelia, another Solid Gold Oscar miss for Leo right there

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Yet another piece of "evidence" that coincidentally surfaces just in time to sell yet another TV show.

Greg

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