WebMaximus

Aerosoft ENTC in P3Dv4 - be warned

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Tonight's flight into Aerosoft Tromso didn't end that well after 4+ hours in the air...

Thought I made a really smooth landing but that sensation didn't last for more than a couple of seconds before I had the dreadful crash message in red in the upper left corner of the screen I luckily don't see very often.

I couldn't believe what just happened. So, after P3D reset itself and reloaded the flight where I was back at Bilbao where my flight started, I manually loaded a new flight starting at runway 19 at ENTC. Figured I would just take off and do a traffic pattern coming back into runway 19 for another landing attempt.

After starting the engines and configuring the NGX for takeoff I started the takeoff roll but didn't get any further than intersection E before I had the same kind of mysterious crash again.

Now that I at least learned it wasn't because of me I was crashing I went to Aerosoft's support forum where I found the below thread.

Unfortunately, the "solution" suggested by Aerosoft is to disable crash detection in P3D which I personally don't consider a solution for a payware airport scenery claimed as being P3Dv4 compatible.

Just wanted to warn anyone else about this and also ask if someone found a proper fix for this issue rather than disabling crash detection in P3D?

Here's the thread over at Aerosoft.

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php%3F/topic/125037-entc-tromso-x-object-collision/&ved=0ahUKEwjv1aKO8ofXAhVBEpoKHSQoBZEQFghiMA4&usg=AOvVaw32b9h62dOKm8v0xA2osefD

 

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Aerosoft suggestion to disable crash detection is unfortunately too common, P3Dv4 or not.  You can try opening the AFCAD file with that scenery and check for yourself if there is a misplaced hidden object at that intersection (using ADE).  In some cases the crash involves a texture layering that is not where it should be.

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Thanks but I don't feel like manually fixing a payware product simply to be able to roll along the runway without crashing.

Instead I hope Jo (the developer) will release a proper fix and if not I have lots of other airports to enjoy without this issue.

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2 hours ago, Anxu00 said:

Aerosoft suggestion to disable crash detection is unfortunately too common, P3Dv4 or not.  You can try opening the AFCAD file with that scenery and check for yourself if there is a misplaced hidden object at that intersection (using ADE).  In some cases the crash involves a texture layering that is not where it should be.

I have P3D crash detection disabled permanently and no trouble at all in all of my flights to any airport.

Cheers, Ed

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2 hours ago, edpatino said:

I have P3D crash detection disabled permanently and no trouble at all in all of my flights to any airport.

Same here.
Initially disabled due to my flying skills :biggrin:, later because of scenery conflicts and online flying.

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had  crash  disabled  ever  since i new  about it  since hate  it  when  a1  aircraft  or  trucks  run into you on the airport

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indeed there are many reasons to disable crash detection.  too many bugs in the crash detection module provided by microsoft/lockheed to call it realistic.  Of course there might be a problem with the modeling of that airport, or it might just be an unavoidable development reality that causes it.  I've been running with crash detection off for years for many issues of this type, and crazy suicidal AI vehicle issues as well.  (I also don't own this airport, so Tromso was never my issue) There are two different types of simmers:  those who have crash detection turned off already, and those who will turn crash detection off at some point in the future.  :)

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Wow!

Must say I'm amazed by this input where 100% of you are fine having to disable crash detection in order to successfully enjoy your simulator.

I have it disabled for other vehicles since I do all my flying online but I certainly don't have it disabled all together.

Having it like that you can never crash no matter how much you screw up and you'll never feel that tickling feeling the moment before touchdown where you hope you'll be OK. Nor will you be happy and proud of yourself when you made it down safely in really bad conditions.

To me this makes the simulator more like an arcade game where you just bounce back up in the air like magic no matter how hard you slam your aircraft into the ground.

Where's your pride guys 😉 and are you really saying you find it acceptable with a payware airport where you can't roll down the main (and in this case only) runway without crashing into an invisible wall in the middle of the runway?!

I've seen this once before at FlyTampa EKCH along a specific taxiway close to the terminals. IMO that is more acceptable due to the bad crash modeling but not being able to use the runway...come on guys 😁

Should also mention that FlyTampa addressed the issue above shortly after it was reported.

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You don’t need crash detection to know if you have screwed up or not......or at least you shouldn’t anyway. It’s pretty obvious to me.

 

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Sure it's pretty obvious but still you'll be able to keep flying and come in for another attempt. Or will you be honest with yourself after you bounced up in the air and quit the flight manually?

Up to each and every one of course how they like it. Personally I guess I'm unique since I'll never disable crash detection all together.

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On the other hand, i'm surprised there's someone who doesn't disable crash detection right away =)

It would be interesting if it wasn't flawed as it is.

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I haved some crashs with unvisible layers of objects in some orbx sceneries too.

Remember a route between New Zeeland South to North where flying with a friend in duo aircrafts and we crashed on the same zone, same moment... 

The only solution to do this flight was diasabling the detection.

As a Samos scenery, one of versions is sold with a other added airport on the runway of this added was a invisible wall making me crashed too.

Perhaps some conditions of what is installed in scenery.cfg may cause the crashs.

After boring me a lot with so kind of crash, I disable the crash detection for ever.

When we do a bad landing, we know in ourself...  we have bad. No nessecery that the sim reload because lost of time.

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Many of the payware add-ons (aircrafts) has a more advance "crash" detection than in the Default P3Dv4 and therefor they often recommend to disable the default inside P3Dv4.

Thanks Michael Moe

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As long as there is no sophisticated damage model and therefore also no technically mature crash system and the dumb AI the crash detection of FSX and P3D is more or less useless.

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1 hour ago, GHarrall said:

You don’t need crash detection to know if you have screwed up or not......or at least you shouldn’t anyway. It’s pretty obvious to me.

 

Correct and the crash system isn't the best part of P3D regarding implementation to say the least ;-)

Just disabled and as soon they are going to implement a robust system till then I'm not interest at all...

 

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Completely understand the frustration, but that is exactly why I have always disabled crash detection.  There were,  in my past experience,  too many anomalies in scenery which caused me the same dread.  

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Crash detection in MFS has alway been buggy and, to be honest, kind of total nonsense (it adds literally NOTHING to flightsim realism).
When I crash due to my lack of flying skills (which fortunately happens very rarely), I know it for sure. So it is the first thing I disable after installing another instance of my FS.

From time to time I do read people being angry with some kind of mysterious crashes due to having this option ticked. While I understand almost every oddity when it comes to FS choices (being Boeing or Airbus diehard, flying always the same airport, hating anything larger than Cessna, lol) I could never understand why someone would want to have this nonsensical crash detection on.

So, Richard, a piece of advice from your old FS friend: turn this bloody poo off and enjoy flying to Tromso!

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Disabling crash detection is the first thing I do when I do a new install of P3D. It's nothing to do with Aerosoft. It happens at default airports too. While you're sitting in the cockpit doing all your preperations at the gate, there's nothing worse than some gobs**te baggage handler driving around too close to you. All it takes is for him to go a little off course and he'll smack right into you. People are saying turning CD off is unrealistic. Personally I think it makes it more realistic.

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I also leave crash detection off. No need for it. If you crash, you know anyway. No need for this "feature". And for the landing parameters, I use The Lord of the Landing, which provides me with the sink rate during touch down, centerline deviation, bank angle, heading, and other parameters etc. If I touch down with 400 fpm, I know it's a firm landing. I better go with the numbers than with "crash detection".

As to sceneries, a lot of them suffer from hidden objects. Why bother with them?

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OK, all of you can't be wrong so even when I didn't think I would change my mind about this one you eventually succeeded converting me over to the dark side guys :laugh:

Must say though I still find it really boring with no CD enabled because I really like being able to crash. Of course not crashing in itself but the realism knowing that is what will happen if I don't handle my aircraft correctly just like IRL. And as already mentioned I'm referring to contact with the ground/terrain, not some stupid AI model or another online user picking the same gate I did moments before him.

With all discussions how P3D is a simulator for training to fly aircraft rather than any kind of an arcade game for pure enjoyment I must say I'm surprised this topic on realistic crash modeling hasn't been more discussed and hasn't gotten more attention from LM if they wish to develop a realistic flight simulator suitable for actual training.

And no before anyone gets upset...I'm not talking about seeing nasty details that could alarm some people looking at it the wrong way.

I'm talking about knowing when you screwed up and when you didn't based on a realistic and fully functional crash detection system without having to use any external add-on such as that The Lord of the Landing mentioned above that I need to check out. Sounds like a very interesting add-on while waiting for hopefully one day having a better CD system in place out of the box.

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30 minutes ago, WebMaximus said:

Of course not crashing in itself but the realism knowing that is what will happen if I don't handle my aircraft correctly just like IRL

And that, Richard, is exactly where I would kindly disagree. :smile:
MFS/P3D Crash Detection has as much in common with realism as addition does with subtraction.

If you like realism - TURN IT OFF.

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1 hour ago, WebMaximus said:

Must say though I still find it really boring with no CD enabled because I really like being able to crash. Of course not crashing in itself but the realism knowing that is what will happen if I don't handle my aircraft correctly just like IRL. And as already mentioned I'm referring to contact with the ground/terrain, not some stupid AI model or another online user picking the same gate I did moments before him.

Richard, a crash is defined if you have too much energy when touching the ground. :blush: Just set yourself a limit in regard of the sink rate during touch down and use this tool (download link is on the bottom): http://planeman-fs.blogspot.de/2012/05/lord-of-landing-v17.html

It works with P3D V4.1 and it is all you need. It even allows you to practice landings by beaming you 4 nm to 12 nm on final.The tool connects via Simconnect and does not hit fps.

My landing in an airliner is usually at 150 - 300 fpm (without floating). During Crosswinds it is a bit higher and hence firmer. I am not going higher than 450 - 500  fpm if you want to avoid an inspection :ohmy: Everything > 600 fpm usually alarms the onboard monitoring system. Everything above 800 - 1000 fpm I would call a "crash" with serious damage to the gear.

With an single engine GA it is usually 35 to 70 fpm @ touchdown. With a twin GA, it's usually around 75 to 150 fpm.

Cheers,
Chris

 

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Gentlemen,

There are many different reasons why such a crash would occur, and they all have to do with scenery design, how competitive it is and what customers expect these days.  Often times it has to do with depressions or adding invisible objects so that other things in the scenery work. It's normal, and a number of scenery devs do this.

Though the OP now understands that crash detection should always be turned off, I'll add that it has been STANDARD ADVICE for the past 10 years to disable crash detection for payware scenery.

Look, I'm a flight simmer first, but I also work with and perform tech support for a number of leading developers, and the stuff I sometimes see is shameful, as is the title of this post.

Please, for Pete's sake, if you THINK there is a problem with a flight sim product then don't run to AVSIM or anywhere else and create a post with such a dramatic and inflamatory title.  We're better than that!  Just ask the developer.  You know, in doing tech support for a number of leading developers, about 90% of what I do is educating customers - in other words, 90% of the time it's ignorance and is usually born out of not reading the product documentation (though I'm not saying this in this case as I don't have the scenery in question).

 

Best wishes.

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3 hours ago, Rafal said:

And that, Richard, is exactly where I would kindly disagree. :smile:
MFS/P3D Crash Detection has as much in common with realism as addition does with subtraction.

If you like realism - TURN IT OFF.

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean to say I find the current implementation of CD realistic but I do like knowing a bad landing will also end in a bad result rather than just bouncing up in the air again.

2 hours ago, Cargostorm said:

Richard, a crash is defined if you have too much energy when touching the ground. :blush: Just set yourself a limit in regard of the sink rate during touch down and use this tool (download link is on the bottom): http://planeman-fs.blogspot.de/2012/05/lord-of-landing-v17.html

It works with P3D V4.1 and it is all you need. It even allows you to practice landings by beaming you 4 nm to 12 nm on final.The tool connects via Simconnect and does not hit fps.

My landing in an airliner is usually at 150 - 300 fpm (without floating). During Crosswinds it is a bit higher and hence firmer. I am not going higher than 450 - 500  fpm if you want to avoid an inspection :ohmy: Everything > 600 fpm usually alarms the onboard monitoring system. Everything above 800 - 1000 fpm I would call a "crash" with serious damage to the gear.

With an single engine GA it is usually 35 to 70 fpm @ touchdown. With a twin GA, it's usually around 75 to 150 fpm.

Cheers,
Chris

 

Will definitely check this tool out, thanks for the tip Chris!

2 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Gentlemen,

There are many different reasons why such a crash would occur, and they all have to do with scenery design, how competitive it is and what customers expect these days.  Often times it has to do with depressions or adding invisible objects so that other things in the scenery work. It's normal, and a number of scenery devs do this.

Though the OP now understands that crash detection should always be turned off, I'll add that it has been STANDARD ADVICE for the past 10 years to disable crash detection for payware scenery.

Look, I'm a flight simmer first, but I also work with and perform tech support for a number of leading developers, and the stuff I sometimes see is shameful, as is the title of this post.

Please, for Pete's sake, if you THINK there is a problem with a flight sim product then don't run to AVSIM or anywhere else and create a post with such a dramatic and inflamatory title.  We're better than that!  Just ask the developer.  You know, in doing tech support for a number of leading developers, about 90% of what I do is educating customers - in other words, 90% of the time it's ignorance and is usually born out of not reading the product documentation (though I'm not saying this in this case as I don't have the scenery in question).

Best wishes.

Been working with support and consulting in different roles within the IT sector myself for 20+ years and have been simulating flight even longer as well as being a member of beta teams developing some of the most popular add-ons for our flight simulators.

With that out of the way it's not that I haven't heard many people are disabling CD. More that I haven't had to myself until now since I never experienced any issues having it enabled (other vehicles option not included) with one exception being FlyTampa EKCH which was addressed swiftly by the developer.

As for "dramatic and inflamatory" as well as "running to Avsim" let me assure you it was more of a slow walk after already both reading as well as posting also over at the developers site. Reason for the title and for the post here was just as the title suggests, to warn fellow guys in here to not fall into the same hole I did after a 4+ hours flight last night.

This however was before I knew I was the only guy left on Avsim still having CD enabled :laugh:

Finally, if you want to mark words used or how things are expressed I suggest you spend some of your time following the link in my first post and read some of the things said by Aerosoft themselves or their forum moderators.

Now, there you will find some true examples of how to not address your customers and acting shamefully and let me assure you it's not the one-time-only type of thing. Unfortunately I have seen this many times and not just over at Aerosoft and their forums but also elsewhere.

I even talked in private with Mathijs about this once in the past and kindly asked him to bring this up with some of the guys in his staff. I received a very polite and friendly response from Mathijs and afterwards the attitude changed for the better which felt great I'm sure both for us as well as for Aerosoft. Some other developers could certainly need a course how to interact with your customers as well but problem is being in this niche market you can pretty much act any way you like if you're a developer with no true competition.

So Dave, thanks for all good advice but I think I'll manage and now I suggest we get back on track so we won't need any CD system for this derailed discussion :happy:

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I agree.  Bring this discussion back on track or it will be closed. Ranting (or inciting our membership) is not allowed here as it only causes some members to violate our rules and troll too.  DaveCT2003 is correct.  There are many reasons for a sim to crash and the aircraft is just one of them.  One needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Aerosoft caused the crash because of their product.  We need to move on or this topic will be closed superfast.  Everyone needs to take a deep breath and move on.  Thanks for everyone's cooperation! 

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