pracines

Interesting topic.... the comments are even more interesting

Recommended Posts

Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

MovingMap-gate, lol!    DLC is fine and most would welcome it.  But I fear they will live to regret making a basic moving map, paid DLC.  It just gives a concerning impression that the core sim will not be further considerably developed (at least in terms of features) and that everything else (weather, ATC, etc) will be further payware DLC.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, pracines said:

Hopefully DTG will get the message.  

Hopefully petitioners soon understand that they are not living in a dream world.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, JYW said:

It just gives a concerning impression that the core sim will not be further considerably developed (at least in terms of features) and that everything else (weather, ATC, etc) will be further payware DLC.

Do you really think the core sim is now fully developed?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, torium said:

Do you really think the core sim is now fully developed?

No!  My whole point was that it's not fully developed but that people are worrying that it now won't be developed furher (ie.. have new features added) as it seems DTG might farm all new features development out to 3rd parties, as payware DLC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, torium said:

Hopefully petitioners soon understand that they are not living in a dream world.

Hopefully fools will get wisdom. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that this is hindsight, but if FSW had been released 6 months earlier, its market would have been broader. The flight sim market is oversaturated with quality base sims. Utilizing 3rd party developers is a way for DTG to catch up in terms of features.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pracines said:

Cryss promotes the DTG third party approach...

http://store.steampowered.com/news/externalpost/steam_community_announcements/2143012757607475466

Look at the reaction from most....its like a mob is starting to form.

Yup, with the attendant level of intelligent comment a mob usually contributes, i.e. none whatsoever. What part of the concept of third party developers being businesses, is it that these people are not getting? 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Chock said:

Yup, with the attendant level of intelligent comment a mob usually contributes, i.e. none whatsoever. What part of the concept of third party developers being businesses, is it that these people are not getting? 

The risk Alan is as i said from the very beginning, the casuals, the Steam users that people (including you actually) were saying would flock to FSW and displace us old timers, are unhappy with the state of FSW; they don't want too, or expect too, pay money for the sim they got for less than the cost of an add-on aircraft.  Meanwhile, the majority of the old timers and if you'll forgive the term 'whales'  have largely moved over to P3Dv4 or X-Plane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think DTG need to be careful here. I worry that if they give the wrong impression as this appears to be, the sim could easily end up like another Flight. This is an early access release and it can easily give the wrong impression to customers to start releasing the likes of moving maps and basic camera controls as DLC at this stage of development. I have no problem with DLC aircraft and airports but the core sim needs to be finished before we start seeing the likes of moving maps for sale. Otherwise it just comes across as a money grab. And nobody likes a money grab even if we are all aware that profits need to be made. It's not only about the debate of what should be included in the core sim and what should be DLC, the danger is that it's more about the fact that it sends completely the wrong message to supporters like myself who really want this sim to succeed.

I have enormous respect for DTG's engagement with the community just as I have with the guys at Laminar. It makes me happy to see DTG's employees actively engage with us and it in turn, it makes us feel like we are a part of something and that our opinions and our custom matters to them. This is something that is generally lost in today's world in almost every industry and it is great to feel this is sincere from the likes of Cryss and Aime. However, the tide can turn pretty fast or maybe even faster given the perceived sincerity when poor marketing and sales decisions are subsequently made. It makes people feel a little betrayed for putting their trust and believe in the hope that this time things were going to be 'different' and that we somehow matter as the end user. I am not saying I feel hard done by in anyway here as I a little more understanding than that, but this is more of an observation of how I believe many people consciously or subconsciously feel; and often why great products fail.

I truly hope that this is just a misunderstanding and that the roadmap for FSW is completed in a way that gives us a solid core simulator without the need to have to purchase absolute basics like a moving map and basic camera controls.

My two cents.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DTG are just here to milk the cow. Time to realize that guys. There are better ways to spend your $.

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, WotanUK said:

The risk Alan is as i said from the very beginning, the casuals, the Steam users that people (including you actually) were saying would flock to FSW and displace us old timers, are unhappy with the state of FSW; they don't want too, or expect too, pay money for the sim they got for less than the cost of an add-on aircraft.  Meanwhile, the majority of the old timers and if you'll forgive the term 'whales'  have largely moved over to P3Dv4 or X-Plane.

Generally speaking, people will go to something which does what they want best, and where flight sims are concerned (at least a civilian one with airliners etc) at the moment that is P3D V4, largely by virtue of the amount of developers happy to work on the platform, and its 64 bit architecture, but there are in fact still a number of things which FSX does in fact do better than P3D.

Whilst also 64 bit, XPlane 11 still isn't the complete solution for that because of a few pieces of the puzzle not being in place yet. It looks like those missing pieces are coming, but they ain't here yet. So this doesn't mean P3D V4 will remain in its happy position; improvements to XPlane which enable developers to use their skills to best advantage might eclipse it, as indeed might FSW if it ends up being able to do many things better than P3D and for less money, and like XPlane 11, FSW already does several things better, even in its unfinished state. And let's not forget AeroFly's FS2 is also in the 64 bit mix as well.

So like FSX is for DTG, or at least was until the 64 bit version of P3D offered a compelling enough reason for its users to switch to Lockheed Martin's offering (principally VAS), FSW offers that same opportunity; a relatively complete sim for casual users who might buy the odd Steam add-on, but also a 64 bit platform for TPDs who want to push its content with more costly and complex stuff not sold exclusively through Steam.

DTG will have to tread carefully of course, they are not out of the woods yet, but the notion that a few people complaining about a moving map payware add-on and refusing to buy it somehow signifies we should all be heading to the lifeboat deck where FSW is concerned, is at the very least a bit premature. I wouldn't buy that moving map or camera slew thing either (for any flight sim, let alone FSW), but it doesn't mean I wouldn't buy other stuff, and indeed have, for FSW, in fact I bought that Just Flight PA-28 for FSX, P3D and FSW and would have done for XPlane 11 too if it was in a bit more of a rounded state than it presently is.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see it as just more noise from the woefully uninformed. Folks who're using emotions rather than logic as a means to transform their opinions into alternate facts... :dry:

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Chock said:

So like FSX is for DTG, or at least was until the 64 bit version of P3D offered a compelling enough reason for its users to switch to Lockheed Martin's offering (principally VAS), FSW offers that same opportunity; a relatively complete sim for casual users who might buy the odd Steam add-on, but also a 64 bit platform for TPDs who want to push its content with more costly and complex stuff not sold exclusively through Steam.

I agree with most of what you said; but this is wrong.  FSW doesn't fill any niche, that is the whole problem.  If you like Airliners but don't have a lot of money, or you are just causally interested, then you are stuck with FSX.  If you like GA i would suggest that Aerofly has much better performance and visuals, albeit in a more limited area.  But even that isn't a selling point for FSW, we all know that most areas in P3D / FSX / FSW all look very much the same without large amounts of add on scenery.  So what does that leave for FSW, military flying??  I would say DCS is the better choice for that.  

The serious simmers, the ones who are willing to spend money (sometimes silly amounts) are all going to be using P3D or X-Plane and frankly (I can only speak for me) but FSW would have to offer something remarkable for me to move from P3D and thus end up purchasing everything again.

FSW missed the boat, it effectively had an open goal but releasing with no airliners, no significant 3rd party support (or at the very least questionable business decisions), not manifestly different from FSX (something that could also be said about P3D) and perhaps most significantly no SDK.  I just don't see any market for FSW beyond people who buy when Steam have a sale and never touch it again.

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, steve310002 said:

This is an early access release and it can easily give the wrong impression to customers to start releasing the likes of moving maps and basic camera controls as DLC at this stage of development.

fs-flightcontrol already sold their software for FSX, FSX: SE, P3D, X-Plane 10/11 and FSW on their own website. Many do not like Dovetail allowing a 3rd party developer selling the same (downscaled) product on Steam. Humans are mostly irrational.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, torium said:

fs-flightcontrol already sold their software for FSX, FSX: SE, P3D, X-Plane 10/11 and FSW on their own website. Many do not like Dovetail allowing a 3rd party developer selling the same (downscaled) product on Steam. Humans are mostly irrational.

 

 

I agree and thought of that fact when I wrote my post. However, the difference is that this is an early access release, something that didn't exist at the time with FSX and earlier flight sims. I appreciate thought that X-Plane in a sense is in early access on an endless basis which is now seen as one of it's key strengths largely due to the freeware market and the respect that Laminar have with simmers. Releasing content like maps and camera slew when the base sim isn't finished just confuses the average user. Bare in mind the average user is not you or me but more the average gamer on Steam who takes a mild interest in flight sim or sims in general (of which there a loads). For better or worse, these are the customers that will make the difference through steam sales in whether flight sim succeeds or not, at least at first until it gains momentum and popularity amongst us simmers. There is still a long way to go in that regard based on the level of interest in these forums.

If you look at other games/software that is in early access there have been similar points raised by Steam users when paid DLC has been released whilst a game is still in early access. I think it's a reaction to be expected. People are often impatient by nature and when they are eagerly awaiting the next 'big' update but instead see paid DLC there tends to be a backlash. It's just human nature. People always want more and early access just exasperates that.

In any case, this of course is an over reaction based on some of the comments which are clearly at little too strong and unfair to say the least. But in the end its to be expected and DTG need to be aware of that and the spiraling effect it can have.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, WotanUK said:

FSW missed the boat, it effectively had an open goal but releasing with no airliners, no significant 3rd party support (or at the very least questionable business decisions), not manifestly different from FSX (something that could also be said about P3D) and perhaps most significantly no SDK.  I just don't see any market for FSW beyond people who buy when Steam have a sale and never touch it again.

Ian, you have hit the nail squarely on the head; couldn't agree more. And today's PR fiasco just closes the window further.

James

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What people forget is that software is all about the future and not the past. To this end, most users will quickly forget about the past if a new piece of software is truly worth buying. For example, Just Flight had a reputation of putting out poor, unfinished products, just as some other TPDs( and we know who they are) do. It was not one day that someone didn't swear that they would stop buying anymore Just Flight products.

Then one fine day, Just Flight introduced a new plane( the arrow) that is getting great reviews---unanimously. Guess what? People are buying their product, and forgetting all about its past "poor" reputation.  That's the nature of software. If Just Flight continues in this new path, users will forget its  past sins and buy again.

Unlike an old simmer who has already invested in his or her sim thousands of dollars and starts getting picky on some small detail, a new simmer will look at the three or four sims currently on the market and decide which one to buy based on entry cost, ease of entry into the hobby and perceived present and future value. Moreover, he or she will look at available third party options and determine if they fulfill their fantasies, yes, fantasies. I never had any problem spending money if I thought that that expenditure would gratify my sim needs. I love classic airliners, and so I buy them all-- the good ones and the bad ones. And yes, many times I've gone against my inner rational self.

Lastly, Stephen Hood has spoken about FSW breaking new ground, being truly disruptive. I am willing to wait until he either quits, gets fired, or truly succeeds in giving us a revolutionary product.  He's not a stupid developer. He knows what's against him., but I like his approach. It's new and innovative. I am on his camp.

My opinion is that in these times of immediate gratification and "internet" arrogance( people say whatever they feel like), putting out an "early access" is risky business. Putting out an early access flight sim is sheer madness. DTG may yet turn out to be the little engine that could.

The story has yet to be fully written..... Let the races begin.....

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, neumanix said:

DTG are just here to milk the cow. Time to realize that guys. There are better ways to spend your $.

lockheed martin already gets $30+ billion of usa tax dollars already every year, but they still charge for prepar3d. some epic milking right there. maybe DTG should have become a defense contractor and then nobody would criticize them for trying to be a profitable business... just like every other business that wants to stay afloat...

cheers,-andy crosby

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was not aware that FSW and DLC content was a compulsory purchase in you don't want it don't buy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, rjfry said:

I was not aware that FSW and DLC content was a compulsory purchase in you don't want it don't buy it.

True but when people pay for early access they expect basics to be added to the core game like a basic moving map and not sold as DLC during this period of development.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, steve310002 said:

True but when people pay for early access they expect basics to be added to the core game like a basic moving map and not sold as DLC during this period of development.

Well when it comes out of early access we can make a judgement, AF2 is still early access 18 months after release on steam and there`s DLC content available,  I get the feeling that whatever DTG do with FSW it will not be enough for some, I also think there`s a bit of if FSW is a big hit my sim will suffer and may lose users. No one complains about DLC on steam for XP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, steve310002 said:

True but when people pay for early access they expect basics to be added to the core game like a basic moving map and not sold as DLC during this period of development.

Why do you consider a moving map to be a core feature? There isn't one in FSX, just a very basic static map. Once the SDK comes out I'm sure that the likes of Plan-G and LittleNavMap will look at supporting FSW for free.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

Once the SDK comes out I'm sure that the likes of Plan-G and LittleNavMap will look at supporting FSW for free.

And the fear and screams will continue .............

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello all,

I am an owner but not a user of this sim and this for various personal reasons, largely stated in previous threads.

One aspect of this is that FSW is of course, still in development ... conjecture and uninformed personal opinions are not very helpful (you could probably include my opinions in this)

However, I see as one entirely relevant point, the cost factor.  If one was fortunate enough to get this sim for the cost of "Flight School" AND the conjecture, rumours and predictions come to a remotely correct fruition, which, ultimately is hinted at being a totally unfinished core sim with TPDs taking over the DLC, one is very likely to pay very much more for a P3D comparable end product.

I think we really should be remembering though, that this is still in development and give the Dev (DTG) a fair chance. As a tube flier, this has very little appeal for me at the moment, but I lie in wait for a finished product (with TPD DLCs or without) before I make a final decision on whether or not to pursue it with gay abandon and reckless alacrity.

Patience, my friends is called for ... not vitriol nor wild speculation.

Regards to all

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now