Key things MS Needs to do (it won't be easy)

[LHookins 3,103]

53 minutes ago, Greazer said:

FYI - I have been coding professionally since the 90's and the reason for everything I own. Flight sim is a hobby. That's the difference.

Congrats.  I've been doing it since March 1976, retired about 1999 and kept coding my own projects.  My most recent projects have all been flight sim related.  When I was still working, I'd spend 10 hours a day at work, then come home and code at night on my personal computers.

For a true coder, there's no such thing as "flight sim is a hobby".  Stuff I learned at  home advanced my career.

Hook

[ca_metal 2,019]

20 hours ago, Paraffin said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that ASOBO is the primary developer, with Microsoft handling the cloud services and Xbox integration. 

We're still in the dark on all the details, but it would make sense to hire an outside studio that had already produced game-level flight sims ("The Crew 2") to build the main simulator. It would be more efficient than starting a new MFS programming team from scratch at Redmond. MS could handle the cloud stuff, the marketing, and of course they own "this amazing franchise" which is all the quote above is saying. 

 One thing I found interesting (and maybe a little worrying) is that ASOBO's web site has new openings for 14 positions including Producer and Lead Game Designer. Obviously they have their hand in many different games underway and not just MFS. But only the one open position of Vehicle Artist mentions anything at all about aviation:

 "Working from concept models and images and turning them into fully functioning and flyable works of art – the work is both on exteriors and interiors."

 Let's hope there are a least one or two pilots working on contract for the studio, as advisers if nothing else.

I don't doubt MS is outsourcing a lot of features of the sim, but I wouldn't count on ASOBO leading all the teams around the new sim. According to what Phil Spencer said, they have flying enthusiasts inside Microsoft and those asked to take the franchise back and probably they are the ones leading the project.

ASOBO might a relevant dev on this new sim, but I wouldn't bet they are leading it, more probably just taking care of some of the features they are good on, like 3D modelling.

[n4gix 4,947]

19 hours ago, Greazer said:

I expect this to be probably true also, which means that it only leaves add-on converter tools.  Without those, it would take years for a substantial add-on market to become available for the serious flight simmers. 

It may not be a complete loss for 3rd party developers as long as they retain their Max source files at least! After all, mesh will still be mesh. What will be different are the material definitions, changes to the source texture files, and of course animation and mouse rectangle tags which will require more than just a bit of re-work. Hopefully they will have streamlined the pipeline process in whatever tools are provided.

Additionally, a new export/compiler will be required. While I truly dislike the FSX/P3D two-step process, I hope that they do not make it a single pass export/compile function, as the ancient FS9 GMax module did, simply because that will lock development to exclusively Max, which would purely kill most -if not all- of the freeware developer's contributions.

It's too bad that the open position for 3d modeler requires fluency in French and a relocation to beautiful Bordeaux. Five plus decades ago while a student at Leysin American School in Leysin-Feydey, Suisse, I was required to become fluent in French, Italian and German, as well as improve my native English fluency. LAS had a unique way of encouraging students to learn. For me as a native English speaker, all of my math and sciences were taught in German, and my humanities divided between French and Italian. My English of course was taught in English, albeit by a lovely young English lady. 

However, nearly forty years of disuse has reduced my fluency in all three languages to the level of a mildly retarded kindergartener!

[Greazer 1,320]

26 minutes ago, n4gix said:

Aditionally, a new export/compiler will be required. While I truly dislike the FSX/P3D two-step process, I hope that they do not make it a single pass export/compile function, as the ancient FS9 GMax module did, simply because that will lock development to exclusively Max, which would purely kill most -if not all- of the freeware developer's contributions.

Locking out the freeware developers would be a fatal mistake. If you want to know why XP has done so well it's because they opened up the sim to all developers and platforms. There are free tools and exporters.  It's like the Java of flight sims. It has attracted the extreme talents such as Mr Zibo. MS need to learn to embrace the community and freeware devs. That's a Must.

[pracines 823]

On 7/3/2019 at 8:41 AM, LHookins said:

Microsoft only needs to do one thing:  attract a lot of new simmers.

MS Flight and DTG FS/FSW tried that - it did not work.

MS has to attract us current flight simmers first - then new people will follow. That is the order of things.

[Greazer 1,320]

1 minute ago, pracines said:

MS Flight and DTG FS/FSW tried that - it did not work.

MS has to attract us current flight simmers first - then new people will follow. That is the order of things.

Back in the day it was David (Laminar) vs Goliath (Microsoft).  But now the tables have turned and Laminar/Austin Meyer are king of the hill. 

[LHookins 3,103]

7 minutes ago, pracines said:

MS has to attract us current flight simmers first - then new people will follow. That is the order of things.

You aren't the target market.

Hook

[pracines 823]

9 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Back in the day it was David (Laminar) vs Goliath (Microsoft).  But now the tables have turned and Laminar/Austin Meyer are king of the hill. 

And what is Lockheed Martin? You need to take a closer look at the table. 

Laminar does not even compete with PMDG or Aerosoft concerning "kingship".

[G-RFRY 1,711]

9 hours ago, pracines said:

MS Flight and DTG FS/FSW tried that - it did not work.

MS has to attract us current flight simmers first - then new people will follow. That is the order of things.

I think you are confusing the present sims with MSFS, Microsoft have MSFS as part of a new platform that will have at least 10 million users may be more, if you take the present flight sim forums around the web I doubt it comes to 1 million. 

[jcomm 5,928]

I would say this new version of MS FLIGHT SIM starts where MS FLIGHT ended, not that much where FSX / P3D are. And this is the most interesting - even if based on hypotesis - aspect about it in my brain right now.

I strongly believe most simmers would have, by this time, transitioned into MS FLIGHT should it's fate not having been what it was, should it had continued to add detailed, as well as light aircraft / airship, weather tools, ATC and "live scenery".

I played mostly it's missions / challenges and it was a great experience which I was never able to reproduce in other flightsims, until I started playing DCS, IL2 and War Thunder ( my preferred, from a pure gamming prespective, even counting it's FDM limitations - and I am known for being rather picky about that...  🙂 ).

The new scenery engine also appears promising to me. I would really like to be able to use MS FLIGHT SIMULATOR to make virtual flights over the areas I fly IRL. Presently I use X-Plane 11 for that, with Ortho scenery, and previously had used Condorsoaring v1 with a very nice freeware scenery for Alentejo / Portugal. There's a rather expensive and HUGE add-on with ortho scenery for FSX, and I know I could build my own orthos for FSX, but haven't followed that track... X-Plane was a LOT easier to set & go...

I read somwhere on the comments to the initial E3 video that MS FLIGHT SIMULATOR will ( finally ) bring sloped runways / taxiways, but honestly I couldn't glimpse those effects from the video ?

Weather rendering is yet another rather positive, even if based only on obsevation of features in that E3 video, aspect of things to come. Wow!  Has MS finally found a way to circumvent the dimension limits for huge convective clouds / systems ?

Edited July 7, 2019 by jcomm

[pracines 823]

6 hours ago, rjfry said:

I think you are confusing the present sims with MSFS, Microsoft have MSFS as part of a new platform that will have at least 10 million users may be more, if you take the present flight sim forums around the web I doubt it comes to 1 million. 

10 million?🤯 That's a pretty round figure for a prophecy (you did say WILL have). I say there is no way that "9 million" people will be drawn to this new MSFS out of thin air.

I'm not confused at all, I simply know that the general (E3 or otherwise) population is not going to flock to a flight sim just because its new and awesome. It did not happen with any other version, and it will not happen with MSFS 2020. Flight simming is an "acquired taste"; it is even separate from real aviation in many ways.

If you did not know it, there is actually a hatred of flight simming and simmers out there, just because they are flight simmers. I could tell you many personal accounts of having a friend for months, and then suddenly when they come to know that I avidly fly flight sims, they actually hate me. No other reason. Go to a ship sim forum and tell them you fly flight sims, the attack will come swiftly. Go to any other forum, from any other PC genre and defend (or speak highly of) flight simming, you will be attacked, and possibly banned. I'm not absolutely positive why this is, but I suspect its envy, because our little community is very strong (likely the strongest), we have been pioneers for so many things, and we have overcome obstacles like no other PC genre.

Month to month "1 out of 1,000" (as an illustration) join us (I don't mean dabble), and we remain strong. 

I will be totally shocked if suddenly an additional 9 million flight simmers (not half hearted dabblers) join this community next year or anytime.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a billion join, but we don't need even 1 dabbler, because they will do their part in keeping us stagnate or going backwards. Its because of dabblers we stayed at 32 bit way too long. Its because of dabblers we are not at 10Ghz already. You get the picture and its so true. 

I say flight simmers must be appealed to first (the first key thing MS must be certain of), because we are the only ones who will support the project and as we do support it, others, little by little, will join (not dabble), dabblers will not support a flight sim.

[anden145 2,285]

On 7/2/2019 at 10:25 PM, Greazer said:

Somebody has to figure out a way then. Not ready to ditch all the XP add-ons for new Eye Candy. I'm sure a lot of p3d guys will agree. Really need Zibo mod in FS2020.

If that's how you feel (and personally I think it's quite narrow-minded) then this simulator is probably not for you.

[anden145 2,285]

On 7/5/2019 at 12:11 PM, vortex681 said:

We don't know how simple or complex the aircraft in the trailer are (or even if they'll be representative of the final product). We don't know if there'll be realistic ATC. We don't know how well live weather will be depicted (but we do know it's at least likely to look good). We don't know if there'll be good AI traffic (air, ground or water). We don't know that it won't have any major 3rd party aircraft.

And yet, AVSIM is filled with posts and threads in here, where people are claiming - with 110% certainty - that all the content you have just listed (and which you correctly stated, currently have unknown status) is included.

I am genuinely curious as to why you think, that stating the opposite is such a big no-no?!

[G-RFRY 1,711]

1 hour ago, pracines said:

10 million?🤯 That's a pretty round figure for a prophecy (you did say WILL have). I say there is no way that "9 million" people will be drawn to this new MSFS out of thin air.

I don't think you get my point MSFS will be part of a new platform Game Pass and Project Scarlet XBOX and without new user uptake no flight sim will survive long term, LR did not put XP11 on steam and android without a reason but to attract new users and for all we know may well end up on a streaming platform some time in the future, and for all we know train sim may well end up on Game Pass in the future along with other simulators, We don't now what Google intend to include on there platform they could for all we know think the same.     

[simaddict 46]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 3:33 PM, wsmeier said:

For me things are quite simple: any sim that doesn't have PMDG Boeings AND FSLabs Airbuses (or their equivalent) is a non-starter for me. If PMDG and FSLabs aren't on board, certainly there are others who are able to create equivalent add-ons, but will there be anyone else who is willing to go through that kind of development cycle? I'm open to being surprised but, in the meantime, I'm really enjoying the variety in my P3D experience like never before.

I have to agree here. when I think of what I have in P3D V4.5, It's quite a wide range. If I'm in the mood for military missions, I have the Raptor, F-35's F/A 18's, C130's,IRIS A-10 Warthog,etc.. and combined with VRS TacPac for a wide range of weapons that inflict damage, It's amazing. You can drop a variety of carrier config's and tankers for refueling. And for Airliners, I have PMDG 747-8, 777, and 737. I have MCE for Virtual Co-pilot commands, GSX amazing ground operations !! If I'm in the mood for general aviation, (which I do most of the time), I have add on helo's, Turbo props, which I can fly over my favorite add on airports...FLY TAMPA, FSDT, BTW.. FLY TAMPA LAS VEGAS is the most amazing !! I have real time weather (rex SKY FORCE), Old prop precipit FX which enhances rain and snow effects. Not to mention my ORBX airports!! So, I agree about the variety that we currently have. Therefore, we'll have wait and see what Microsoft puts out. Until then, I will probably try it when it's released, open minded, but there's always that "uninstall" option !!

Take care,

Mike