15 minutes ago, bonchie said:

A large part of the world doesn't even really have visible seasonal changes, so I think it depends on where you are used to flying.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying I don't get the thinking for myself. Yes, I'd love seasons at launch, but I'm not going to leave what we are seeing from MSFS to go fly over 256x256 generic white textures. To each his own.

Another thing to think about here is that MSFS is more than just the ground when compared to XP11, which does orthos well, but nothing else outside of the flight model. The weather, atmospherics, and flight model look to keep me interested for a very long time.

 

Well I for one live in S Florida (The epitome of no visible season changes) and crave seasonal changes even if it’s only via a flight sim!

 

Nothing better to me than switching to a cold snow filled AP up North to give me a good taste of winter!

 

No Seasons and horrible ATC were the two biggest reasons I’ve shelved XP11 and refuse to buy any add one for it while I still buy add-ons like crazy for P3D!

 

 

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Edited October 4, 20196 yr by Kilo60

There appears to be a disagreement over the importance of essentially basic features like seasons (???). It would be interesting to see where that divide is established.

I personally think in the sense of what is best for everybody, not just for myself. I and many others have been waiting 30+ years for any flight sim to be as real as it gets. Through the years, most of us veterans have been growing with the MSFS franchise, sustaining it, through the good and the bad. We know that we need to await new technology and innovation for greater realism. We know that to be satisfied with a lack of realism will result in the death of homebased flight simulation. We are reasonable and practical.

I have been mocked before about talking like I speak for all flight simmers, and I realize that it comes off this way, but a simple call for realism is elementary. If realism is not on the table, we may as well forget this whole thing!

I think products like XP and others coming in (still w/o seasons) and lowering the bar with basic features has done us an injustice. Now we have a group who continually fight against basic features, likely and partly because of a conditioning they were presented with when they started to sim. I tried to give XP a chance starting back in version 7, and all the way to DL'ing the latest 11.4 B5 it still lacks so terribly in so many basics like seasons, ATC, and weather. Even P3D in its 4th version over many years still have so many basics missing. This post is not focused on bashing other simulators, but there is an important scenario going on, that I think so many miss. For example, has anybody noticed that on the Wikipedia site there is no longer a history of X-Plane (version/date/features) presented? There used to be, and I have since tried to find a source, to refute false facts, but can't find the facts anymore. Can anybody point an objective and truthful X-Plane history source to me? This will show much of what I mean...tons of excuses and promises over many years, and no results still. 

Here lately we veterans (who try to call for realism in a "loud" voice) are actually getting insulted for wanting realism in a flight simulator. Realism, among several people here, has become profanity, or against some law they have in their minds. I want to be cordial with all flight simmers, but I question people who fight against realism in a flight sim, because aviation is an extremely serious subject. Whether a few trips around the pattern or an Atlantic crossing in a C182, the subject is a very serious one. Yes one can have fun doing it, but to belittle the serious subjects involved in aviation has the potential, and actually does endanger oneself and others...or do you think that a stupid mistake can't result in an aircraft crashing into your own house? Like I said its serious!

Aviation is not a game, real people are becoming real pilots from being introduced to a flight sim. If the flight sim plays a roll in them forsaking/forgetting the importance of, for example a suction gauge or MOA's, it could very well be deadly. All this talk about pilot shortage, and the cost of instruction to get to a career, sets up for more and more potentially deadly incidents. Look at the ramp agent who may have gotten away with downing an airliner. Its that kind of a lack of basic standards that I (all of us) cannot stand for. Was there NOBODY else on the planet who could have done that job? Yes, but a lower standard and overlooking plain facts ruled the norm. The same thing happens here when there is a fight against seasons/ATC and any other basic features we have already had, and should be improved upon. But some here would do there very best to stifle, stagnate, and drive us backwards under the guise of tolerance/understanding/patients.  

I in no way am saying that a flight sim replaces flight instruction, I'm saying that bad habits can be ingrained sub-consciously, and the lack of seasonal aspects, both seen and unseen (also between sim and real life and the correlation between them), can be deadly. I also am saying that anybody who fights against basic features of a flight sim, when we have already had those features in the past, is an enemy of flight simulation and aviation. I also realize that this flight sim cannot be made responsible for aviation accidents, but I remember very plainly, flight simulator was partly blamed for 9/11. Evil is evil, but we have the capability in flight sims of taking measures to avoid foolish/simple mistakes. But if the features are not there to take the measures (in practice), then the sim has failed.

In a 2 phrases; Flight "Simulator" is not "for" fun, but it is very fun. There are plenty of flying "games" available "for" fun to "play". 

My motive is for the benefit of all flight simmers and flight simulation. I ask every one of you, why are you here?

Like I have said so many times, I prefer kindness, but I'm tired of the unnecessary and combative wise cracks (I bolded and underlined the quote to specify). My motive is to help change the thinking that personal attacks are ok here, perhaps this method will serve its purpose. If a bunch of gamers come, we are in for a deluge of personal attacks and I hope the moderators will be able to keep up.  

Keep in mind, I'm not on the attack, I'm just showing and proving the personal attacks that continue to be posted here:

 

On 10/3/2019 at 1:34 PM, Murmur said:

After all that we've seen, I can't help but think that people predicting MFS failure because of lack of seasons or ATC at launch, are gravely delusional.

Me, give me VR before seasons!

Yeah sorry maybe I shouldn't have used that term. Does "out of touch with reality" sound better?

P.S. if you're going to bring up training and safety (lol) in your tirades, then I think the added benefits of VR (compared to the limitations and bad habits induced by a 2D monitor) are vaaaaastly more significant than seeing brown trees and white grass.

P.P.S. for all the others, I would love to see seasons implemented, it should be one of the top 3 priorities for me.

 

41 minutes ago, pracines said:

I think products like XP and others coming in (still w/o seasons) and lowering the bar with basic features has done us an injustice.

Let's be clear about one thing. XP has done more than most with modeling the important flight aspects of seasons, like in-flight icing on the airframe, and modeling the different runway effects whether it's dry, wet, or icy. If the METAR says there are conditions for icing, you'll get it in any of the aircraft. If the METAR says the runway is slippery, it will be slippery in the sim. 

I'm not saying that's "good enough," but for me it's certainly a baseline for the new MSFS. I hope the new sim has seasons at some point, but I can wait for it because I have some inkling of how difficult that will be to pull off, with the scenery model they're using. I won't wait for realistic in-flight weather effects related to seasons, because that should be present on day one in any "modern" flight sim.

1 minute ago, Paraffin said:

XP has done more than most with modeling the important flight aspects of seasons

I agree.

 

24 minutes ago, Murmur said:

I think the added benefits of VR (compared to the limitations and bad habits induced by a 2D monitor) are vaaaaastly more significant than seeing brown trees and white grass.

I agree, the technology is awesome. For VFR, VR is more excellent than seasons, yes. But to discount IFR would be a huge blunder in a flight simulator. Also, comparatively, VR is in its infancy compared to implementing seasons in a flight simulator. I hope one day soon VR and perhaps eventually holodecks will be one of those long standing features that must be a part of a flight sim, or they will fail. All a part of being reasonable and practical in light of present and historical truthful facts. 

31 minutes ago, Murmur said:

I would love to see seasons implemented, it should be one of the top 3 priorities for me.

So we agree; how does that make me (but not you) delusional?

A "top 3" out of hundreds if not thousands of priorities, that is not implemented, would surely destroy the project.

X-Plane could potentially be immensely more favored over FSX/P3D with some top 3 priorities. The Navigraph survey in my view was bias in the extreme. And until MS and LM are a part of the "partner collaboration" like LR was I will never accept them results. I would venture to guess that if MSFS 11 (64-bit DX11) was developed (instead of MS Flight) XP would have faded away fast. XP reaped the benefits of what happened, not the demise of what they have so far not done...."dodged a bullet" comes to mind. But here comes MSFS again. Will it live up to its habit of getting better or will it fail at being an impressive simulation; not just a beautiful world and nice graphics, but substance and realistic long standing features out of the box?

So far so good, and there is time yet, but not time to relax! 

I don't personally know you, but perhaps your experience does not include watching several companies/flight sims die right before your eyes. I want them all to succeed, I do what I can to help, but so few succeed. I don't pretend that everything will be ok if we just settle for less.

You see, you are trying to help MS by a call for VR in the sim. I have not attacked you for this, I actually applaud you. 

The way I see it, flight simulation is quite closely tied to real aviation and that tie is getting more and more close - Microsoft recently demonstrated this (intent) to a group for us all to see.  

I can`t help thinking this is a follow on from FSW which DTG admitted was more towards GA VFR with high detail default GA aircraft, and we said unless this get jets and a broader appeal it will not work.

And I think this is aimed the same way why the GAMER will take it better on XBOX,

PS they don't need big sales on the XBOX average will do it will still outsell the PC version.

Edited October 5, 20196 yr by rjfry

Ironically, if seasons are not included, it could be the saving grace of the X-Plane franchise. Imagine XP 12 includes seasons and has nicer visuals than today. The fact it could have seasons would in that case give people a good reason to fly that sim from time to time over FS2020. 

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 5:37 PM, bonchie said:

No seasons at launch.

@12:40

Huh, maybe time to take pass.

Seems they didn't learn from Flight after all in terms of giving what people wanted.

 

What about AI or ATC?

10 minutes ago, andyjohnston.net said:

Huh, maybe time to take pass.

Seems they didn't learn from Flight after all in terms of giving what people wanted.

 

What about AI or ATC?

Some of you are just being impossible.

They are giving us the whole world in detail never thought possible, atmospherics/weather/clouds only dreamt of, and a brand new flight model but you are gonna pass over seasons coming later? And you think it’s because they didn’t “learn their lesson?”

This is a massive undertaking and I bet 95% of people saying they will pass over seasons right now will still buy it.

Edited October 6, 20196 yr by bonchie

13 minutes ago, bonchie said:

This is a massive undertaking and I bet 95% of people saying they will pass over seasons right now will still buy it.

It’s honestly 99%

With these visuals, any true FS fan will find this impossible to resist, even if they won’t admit to it on a forum. 

Edited October 6, 20196 yr by irrics

On 10/4/2019 at 11:21 PM, rjfry said:

I can`t help thinking this is a follow on from FSW which DTG admitted was more towards GA VFR with high detail default GA aircraft, and we said unless this get jets and a broader appeal it will not work.

And I think this is aimed the same way why the GAMER will take it better on XBOX,

PS they don't need big sales on the XBOX average will do it will still outsell the PC version.

Certainly seems like it’s headed that way on release...!

Think about this DTG bring FSX:SE to steam 2015 with the full backing of MS , 2016 MS talking to a French developer and starts working on MSFS, 2017 DTG launch FSW 64 bit sim, 2018 someone pulls the plug on FSW , 2019 MS announces MSFS. 

4 hours ago, andyjohnston.net said:

Huh, maybe time to take pass.

Sure. We believe you.

3 hours ago, bonchie said:

Some of you are just being impossible.

 

Asobo is French and we have a saying here « impossible n’est pas français » so ask for the impossible they should be able to deliver 😄