41 minutes ago, Doug47 said:

1000 points fde scale vs 1. ‘nough said......

Well no, not 'nough said, really.  We saw, for example with early incarnations of XPlane, that use of blade element approximation of flight dynamics can still produce a wooden, lifeless simulation that feels to an experienced pilot like a puppet on a string, with little or no sense of inertia.  The method used in Simzilla very well *might* prove more flexible and/or accurate, but we don't really know yet if it will...or won't.  Despite its detractors, the FDE developed over successive generations of ESP-based sims is reasonably good for the purpose at hand.  And use of another purportedly superior means to approximate the dynamics of flight does not guarantee better results, just as putting a $3000 set of Ping golf clubs in my hands won't guarantee me a better handicap (which is currently around 50 😁 ). 

At this point we don't know what we don't know, either way.

 

5 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You understand this isn't my choice, I would love to be open and honest about it, however the governing bodies of these projects see otherwise.  

I understand and respect that, however, wouldn't that be the same type of PR MS/Asobo are performing?  As I pointed out in another thread many weeks ago, PR is expensive, in some cases marketing costs can exceed the actual development budget.

But you'd be back at the same situation even if LM did a PR campaign, having to rely on a single source of information to make a decision ... maybe that's ok with you, but I don't think a single source is a good way to proceed for decision making ... I always look for information from multiple sources and evaluate their reliability, the good, the bad, the ugly.

Cheers, Rob.

I understand you're against PR... but aren't you engaged in a kind of it yourself? I mean, this ongoing stream of veiled statements about "if only I could tell you what I've seen, but the NDA prevents me" is what I'd call a teaser campaign, professionally speaking.  Just sayin'...

8 minutes ago, David Mills said:

To establish credibility, could someone please post a list of the third-party add-ons that Rob Ainscough has produced? Thank you.

 

In Rob's defense - he's been a major contributor to the flightsim community over the past several years.  His P3D performance analyses and tuning guides have added a lot to my enjoyment.  That makes it even more painful, for me at least, to be at the receiving end of some of his recent shade-throwing about those of us who are enthusiastic about MSFS - that we're taken in by PR, or are easily pleased, or are gamers and not serious simmers, and so on.  I'm sure he means it only as a corrective to what he sees as excessive enthusiasm for MSFS but I wish he'd find a way to do it without trashing the enthusiasts.   Some of us are multi-decade flightsim veterans with credentials of our own - the fact that we like what we see doesn't automatically mean that we've been duped. 

I hope he's right about whatever project he's touting-but-I'm-not-allowed-to, and that we're right about MSFS.  Wouldn't it be great to have two or three excellent platforms to choose from?

Edited January 26, 20206 yr by Alan_A
Edited for word choice to avoid redundancy

43 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

But you'd be back at the same situation even if LM did a PR campaign, having to rely on a single source of information to make a decision ... maybe that's ok with you, but I don't think a single source is a good way to proceed for decision making ...

Well, a single source is better than no source at all...

 

Regarding MSFS we have more than a single source of course; people were already playing it at events and reported about it.

Regarding P3D V5 our only source is you and your veiled insinuations...

 

Apart from that, if LM were really about to release a P3D V5 that is on par with what we've seen from MSFS and will be available for individuals, what would be their reason to keep it secret? Shouldn't they go ahead and let everybody know not to dump down P3D and their third party developers in their own interest?

 

Edited January 26, 20206 yr by RALF9636

It's probably been said by others, but I don't feel like combing through 8 pages of replies.  In all honestly, what I see being advertised with MSFS, has definitely slowed my personal purchases for P3D.  Like the OP, I have a great deal invested in P3D, and am quite happy with it.  I can't however, ignore what MSFS potentially brings to the table.  As an example, up until the MSFS announcement and follow up postings, I was strongly looking forward to Orbx TE USA products being ported over to P3D (which still hasn't happened).  Now, I'm not so anxious, and actually find myself doubting that I will purchase those products on release.  Just some thoughts from the other side.

10 minutes ago, medx421 said:

It's probably been said by others, but I don't feel like combing through 8 pages of replies.  In all honestly, what I see being advertised with MSFS, has definitely slowed my personal purchases for P3D.  Like the OP, I have a great deal invested in P3D, and am quite happy with it.  I can't however, ignore what MSFS potentially brings to the table.  As an example, up until the MSFS announcement and follow up postings, I was strongly looking forward to Orbx TE USA products being ported over to P3D (which still hasn't happened).  Now, I'm not so anxious, and actually find myself doubting that I will purchase those products on release.  Just some thoughts from the other side.

I have exactly the same feelings about Orbx TE USA. I was really looking forward to the PNW as TE and I am quite disappointed that they apparently chose to release ever more regions for XP than to port them over to P3D.

It makes me think that they try to make the most money as possible as fast as possible before MSFS turns the TE-series obsolete. I'm not sure if we will ever see more TE products for P3D.

On the other hand if we continue speculating it's as well possible that they know something about P3D V5 that gives them a reason not to develop TE for P3D V4 right now but to wait for V5 instead.

10 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You mean select bloggers that were flown out to PR events?

 

Together with your earlier claim that the MSFS "PR campaign" is aimed at destroying the third party developers, this sounds like a big conspiracy theory to me.

Edited January 26, 20206 yr by RALF9636

P3D and Xplane are so far behind and based on their progress the past several years you would expect to wait 5-10 years before a vanilla install reaches MSFS level as it currently stands in alpha. That's as damning a statement as one can make.

23 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You mean select bloggers that were flown out to PR events?

 

 

13 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

Together with your earlier claim that the MSFS "PR campaign" is aimed at destroying the third party developers, this sounds like a big conspiracy theory to me.

Indeed, it seems far fetched. What are you trying to say here Rob?

4 minutes ago, sanh said:

P3D and Xplane are so far behind and based on their progress the past several years you would expect to wait 5-10 years before a vanilla install reaches MSFS level as it currently stands in alpha. That's as damning a statement as one can make.

Well, it might be a damning statement if it were based on fact, rather than on conclusions drawn from a limited and carefully-manipulated dataset--a relative handful of cherry-picked videos and opinions given by people who were courted by the MS PR machine and flown, expenses paid, out to see it under tightly-controlled circumstances.  Where MSFS actually stands in Alpha is as unknown to you as it is to me...  Sure, anyone and everyone can have an opinion on that, but given the dearth of publicly-obtainable information, any opinion formed at this juncture is not capable of being a terribly well-informed one, no matter what conclusion one chooses to draw.  It's quite possible that MSFS is the bees knees that we all hope it will be, and it's also possible that it looks like a million dollars but flies like a refrigerator thrown off a cliff.  I won't speculate either way at this point, because I know I don't have enough un-filtered information. 

Also, it must be said that Microsoft and their XBOX gaming division does have a history and a more contemporary modus operandi, with regard to Flight Simulator and with regard to games and software writ large, and I don't think it would be wise for any of us to ignore all that as we do form our expectations.  "Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it"  --George Santayana

 

1 hour ago, RALF9636 said:

I was really looking forward to the PNW as TE and I am quite disappointed that they apparently chose to release ever more regions for XP than to port them over to P3D.

It makes me think that they try to make the most money as possible as fast as possible before MSFS turns the TE-series obsolete. I'm not sure if we will ever see more TE products for P3D.

On the other hand if we continue speculating it's as well possible that they know something about P3D V5 that gives them a reason not to develop TE for P3D V4 right now but to wait for V5 instead.

We don't know for certain if any further TE regions are coming to P3D. We have been promised them very recently, but given the state of announcements to release ratio on all of their products, it is fair for people to be somewhat sceptical.

However, in Orbx's defence, they were waiting on a developer to join their P3D TE team last September.
Orbx then managed to get a re-made version 2 of TE GB South and both TE GB Central and GB North out of the door in about 3 months.

Don't forget that TE regions are ports from an originally designed XP product, so why wouldn't they continue to develop for XP and port them across when the P3D team are finally in a position to do so?


I don't blame any 3PD from pushing out as many of their W.I.P. projects as possible before MSFS launches. They do need to be careful that in the rush to hit the market, they don't allow the quality to drop to unacceptable levels.
IMO, that will hurt sales figures more (and for longer) than just the people not buying 'til the new sim is out.
 

18 minutes ago, w6kd said:

Well, it might be a damning statement if it were based on fact, rather than on conclusions drawn from a limited and carefully-manipulated dataset--a relative handful of cherry-picked videos and opinions given by people who were courted by the MS PR machine and flown, expenses paid, out to see it under tightly-controlled circumstances.  Where MSFS actually stands in Alpha is as unknown to you as it is to me...  Sure, anyone and everyone can have an opinion on that, but given the dearth of publicly-obtainable information, any opinion formed at this juncture is not capable of being a terribly well-informed one, no matter what conclusion one chooses to draw.  It's quite possible that MSFS is the bees knees that we all hope it will be, and it's also possible that it looks like a million dollars but flies like a refrigerator thrown off a cliff.  I won't speculate either way at this point, because I know I don't have enough un-filtered information.

Don't forget, some of us are aware of quite a bit more regarding MSFS than just the drip-feed of info, screenshots and videos, but are not permitted to divulge...
 

Edited January 27, 20206 yr by F737NG

3 minutes ago, F737NG said:

I don't blame any 3PD from pushing out as many of their W.I.P. projects as possible before MSFS launches. 
 

Neither do I. I am disappointed, but that doesn't mean that I feel entitled to get their products in P3D. it's their business decision and they owe me nothing. 

16 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You don't understand because I didn't say that ... I suggested more than ONE source of information should be used for the "decision" process.  From an overall cost perspective, marketing costs money but can be an effective tool at increasing sales ... I wish LM would

...

Please stop putting words in my mouth.  I've haven't trashed anyone, what's wrong with being a casual simmer?  Again, this is in the P3D forum.

OK, fair enough.  Without putting words in your mouth, here, verbatim, is what you've said just the course of this one thread that's dismissive of PR and suggests it's dishonest, that suggests that MSFS enthusiasts are unskillful consumers of information, that suggests that MSFS is for casual simmers while P3D and X-Plane are for serious simmers, and that says in so many words that Microsoft and Asobo are trying to manipulate developers to stop developing for other platforms.

NB - in Avsim world, "casual" is usually a perjorative. Just read any thread about a Carenado release.

Don't get me wrong - you have every right to think all this and to express it.  But forgive me for reading it and coming to the conclusions I've mentioned in earlier posts.

Quote

Promises and PR aside, we operate in the real world. 

IOW, promises and PR are not "real-world."

Quote

Brady Butler, Rob McCarthy, Kayla Kinzel, Clifton Crane, Spencer  Nelson, Beau Hollis, etc. ... these are actual software engineers working on P3D.  Have you been able to communicate directly with any MFS/Asobo software engineer?  Doesn't get more Public than LM.  What LM don't do is PR campaigns on future products, so your comments seem inaccurate.

I really should stay out of these threads because they are full of so much false information and I can't say anything because of NDAs and just have to let the false information sit and fester ... it's like torture.

Anyway, I'll make a concerted effort to let the "honesty" continue unhindered 😉 and avoid these types of threads. 

IOW, LM is direct and honest, MS/Asobo by contrast does PR campaigns. Plus another instance of "if only I could tell you the truth."

Quote

People are making decisions based on PR or based on someone else's false information or I heard from a friend who heard from a friend's aunt who heard ... .

Speaks for itself - people who decide against add-on purchases are doing it based on PR or other forms of low-value information.

Quote

I see MFS users wanting a more serious in depth sim checking out P3D and XP ... I see more casual user in P3D and XP checking out MFS.  I think everyone will benefit and there will be something for everyone.

I'll grant you allow that there's "something for everyone" but you clearly locate MSFS at the casual (Carenado?) end of the spectrum.

Quote

Maybe MFS does NEED developers to stop making content for these other platforms and I'm not going to get into the politics of that manipulation, maybe some have taken the bait? 

And this, together with your repeated "Ah, the wonders I've seen, if only I could tell you," makes me wonder what you're really trying to accomplish.

Look, as I said above, you're an enormous contributor to flightsim and I hate being on the outs with you.  But I'd suggest that maybe it's better to say a lot more or a lot less.

1 hour ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

you mean select bloggers that were flown out to PR events?

They've had more than just that September preview event where they flew out a bunch of community YouTubers and writers, etc. (including notorious proponent of Microsoft's decision to make another flight sim at the time... Froogle)  At XO19 in London, back in November, they literally just had kiosks set up where the public could sit and use the simulator - there were a couple of detailed impressions from simmers who attended that event.

And of course, there's been a variety of leaks from the ongoing alpha test - videos, impressions, screenshots, etc. - that usually get posted to /r/flightsim and then pretty quickly disappear due to the NDA.

1 hour ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

You mean select bloggers that were flown out to PR events?

 

23 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I'm not unless you are referring to some other Rob ... but as with all things human, people pick and choose or create information to meet their goals, desires, enthusiasm, excitement, defense, offense, justifications, etc.  

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
 

I was referring to the first quoted remark. Are you suggesting all these bloggers are biased because Microsoft treated them special? I find that hard to believe. Based on all the material that is available so far I am sure there is something special coming our way and I'm having a very hard time being part of a community that for a great part is trying to dismiss all hopeful and positive views on MSFS.