38 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Btw, you all have seemed to forgotten that back when FS 2002-FSX days, PC’s CPU were almost doubling year on year P40 to 120, 333 to 600 in a year.

PC now are going at a snails pace compared to the times you are all taking about. 
MSFS is build for now or next year so will we not see cpu@6/7/8. All that rubbish from times gone by. You all seem to have forgot that.

Back in FSX days a one year old PC was not good enough that’s not the case anymore with modern games/PC.

I still run P3D on a 5 year old PC, a five year old PC when FSX come would have properly been a 385. FSX Probably would not have even started.

Times have changed. So should your thinking.

Back in the day............

If i just had the imagination to build up the next 10 years or so. I still havent figured out why we need 8K TV´s in denmark while they still struggle to bring me 4K Premiere L,.

But for flight simulation  oh boy , this is like being born at the right age. (and i believe it might be the whole ideer behind it) 10 years from now we have for instance , taxi (uber)in the air and we need youngers.

Pilot in the future is a whole new ball game

Michael Moe

Hi guys, the time difference has meant it has taken this long to respond....wow it seems I have stirred the pot a bit.

In relation to my original comment, I was reading a comment by the developer of FSDT and they mentioned that the planned updates for KLAX and KJFK were on hold following the MSFS announcement. 

Given that there has basically nothing been heard out of FlyTampa for what seems like forever and a number of others that seem to be throwing out lite versions of things (the new Beijing airport for example) with promises for upgrades to a full fat version when MSFS comes out and PMDG $$ saying they will take the purchase price of their lite NGXu version off the purchase price of the new version when it comes, it seems to me that the developers seem to be either rushing somewhat underwhelming P3D product out the door urgently in preparation for the new sim or have locked up shop for the new one.

Whether this is the correct interpretation or not is obviously up for debate however that’s my current view, and it seems to be pretty short sighted if it is correct.

P3D is running great on my system, it does everything I want and with the money I have invested in 3rd party aircraft, scenery and weather tools etc, I just didn’t understand the apparent closing up shop that I perceive seems to be happening.  If it’s not the case, great news but it was just my observations.

It seems some agree to some extent with me one others don’t. Time will tell about the silver bullet MSFS is going to bring to us at some stage, I for one am not only highly sceptical but can envisage some heartbreak (at least to start with) from some that seem to think that from day one this is the only product you will ever want.

Cheers for now.

Edited January 25, 20206 yr by barramundilure

MSFS2020 will be the natural evolution of our hobby/entertainment, way back in the early eighties when I first used MS Flight simulator, with it's stick scenery and horrible graphics, at that time, I could never imagine anything could get better. Was I wrong. Looking back, I have purchased every release of FS Flight Simulator (still have must of them as box releases), every version of Prepar3d v3 and 4 and every version of X-plane since 8. Of course with every release I bought Addons to enhance the flight experience. I will buy MSFS2020 because it is the next progression to flight entertainment. I will also buy any future release of Prepar3D and X-plane, because each subsequent release will offer more than the previous. The Marketing of these products will dictate how 3rd party Developers choose to support or withdraw any new Addons. Until MSFS2020 is released I think most Developers will wait and see exactly what it offers and what they can supply to fill any shortcomings of the base product.

12 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Is that aimed at the OP?  OP came in with negativity that the developers have stopped developing for P3D/XP etc.   Show me that data?  I'm not interested in speculation, I don't need to speculate and don't want to.  Why would I want to stop developing products for other platforms that are moving forward with a known and established user base that buys add-ons?  

So I'll ask again, what devs have cancelled projects because of MFS?

 

 

 

Pretty sure the examples I mentioned above are exactly what I was talking about Rob....

If I’m incorrectly interpreting what I see then great news....MSFS is no silver bullet at this point in time and I encourage developers not to abandon P3D users just yet. It has plenty of life and users that are there for the long haul.

Sorry if my “negativity” causes you problems.

Edited January 25, 20206 yr by barramundilure

3 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Is that aimed at the OP?  OP came in with negativity that the developers have stopped developing for P3D/XP etc.   Show me that data?  I'm not interested in speculation, I don't need to speculate and don't want to.  Why would I want to stop developing products for other platforms that are moving forward with a known and established user base that buys add-ons?  

So I'll ask again, what devs have cancelled projects because of MFS?

I have already responded to the OP's comment in my first post in this thread regarding his unfounded assertions that major developers have stopped developing for P3D.

The answer strongly appears to be that none of them have.
So I don't understand why you appear to be irked in your reply.
 

5 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

So how do we develop for the unknown?  Still no SDK.  Still no deployment plan.  Promises and PR aside, we operate in the real world.  You really think we're going to spend a fortune in development costs with no assurances of anything and just hope users buy add-ons for MFS?  Wing it approach?  Plenty of end users have already expressed they will NOT buy add-ons for MFS even before it's released (they feel it has everything they need) ... should we just ignore them?  Should we just ignore other development efforts in P3D and XP and only focus on MFS?  If so, why?  Crystal Ball development?  What about user more interested in the simulation aspect and couldn't care less about projected terrain?  Sorry I just don't subscribe to that, I operate on a more reserved/diversified planned approach that incorporates all the known facts and that's not being negative, it's just good business.

Where did I even say that you or other developers "develop for the unknown?"

I stated clearly that projects are already underway for current generation sims and would continue as those are the cash flows until such time that you (3PDs) are in a position to sell for MSFS.
So I don't know why you've created a long-winded rebuttal to things I neither wrote, nor even alluded to.


Medium-term will see a reduction in the total number of add-ons released for current generation sims. But short-term, not much will change.

Development resources will invariably shift to the sim which will have the larger user base, which looks like it will be MSFS.
You can call it crystal-balling, but barring a catastrophe, MSFS is going to take a vast chunk of 'one-sim only simmers' away from current gen sims. The money is going to go into products based on the MSFS platform.


Speaking of the money, the gaming crowd are not going to know anything about P3D or XP, their Xbox Game Passes will only show them that MSFS exists. They will be targetted with adverts by Microsoft.
Even if only a small single digit percentage of total Xbox gamers prove to be willing to spend the odd $10 - $30 like they do on 'mods' in other games, then 3PDs working on MSFS products are going to be very, very successful. The numbers are out-of-this-world in comparison to what our hobby has been used to for the past 10 - 15 years.

With that in mind:

44 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

MFS doesn't dictate terms ... they can not and will not be able to penetrate this market without 1000+ add-on developer support, not a chance ... they need us more than we need them (we have alternatives) and I'm sure that irks them to no end ... but it is what it is ... some markets you just can't dominate and control. 

Good luck with that attitude!
Of course MS can dictate terms, it's their base product that 3PDs are working on and trying to monetise.

This isn't 'Flight'. This game studio isn't under the Sword of Damocles.
The anticipation for the scope of the new sim is off-the-charts. The level of interaction between development team and would-be customers is like I have never seen.

All 3PDs are a means to an end. What may appear to be a symbiotic relationship between MS and you 3PDs, is actually heavily loaded in MS' favour.
Aside from a few 3PDs bringing their own products to improve the vanilla experience, and therefore boost MSFS sales, there will not be the same level of gaps that 'need' filling as with previous sims.

I'm a fan of 3PDs and regularly buy add-ons to improve my sim experience, but there needs to be some realism as to where they stand with MSFS. Those that don't, won't be around a year after MSFS' release - that's just how business works.
 

7 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Everyone around here already knows how it will work "in the wild". It will be absolutely perfect, with flawless performance, a full list of incredible features, the best flight dynamics this side of a NASA simulator, and zero bugs. In fact, it will be so good that it will also include uninstallers for P3D and XPlane....free of charge!

The best thing for sure is that it will not need an uninstaller for ORBX as MS will not let them near it.

13 hours ago, rjfry said:

Simple P3D PC, MSFS XBOX I think that's why MS came back to FS not because they felt guilty about PC users, and I don't think it will be dumb down as much as some users think for the XBOX.

LM P3D are not competing with MSFS or FSX it`s a product the complement the products they develop, unlike MS and MSFS if 10 years from now someone at the top says development cost not worth it, and its not bringing in the punter as much as we thought we now what will happen. 

LOL... What?? This could not possibly be any more wrong...

5 hours ago, F737NG said:

Development resources will invariably shift to the sim which will have the larger user base, which looks like it will be MSFS.
You can call it crystal-balling, but barring a catastrophe, MSFS is going to take a vast chunk of 'one-sim only simmers' away from current gen sims. The money is going to go into products based on the MSFS platform.


Speaking of the money, the gaming crowd are not going to know anything about P3D or XP, their Xbox Game Passes will only show them that MSFS exists. They will be targetted with adverts by Microsoft.
Even if only a small single digit percentage of total Xbox gamers prove to be willing to spend the odd $10 - $30 like they do on 'mods' in other games, then 3PDs working on MSFS products are going to be very, very successful. The numbers are out-of-this-world in comparison to what our hobby has been used to for the past 10 - 15 years.

All 3PDs are a means to an end. What may appear to be a symbiotic relationship between MS and you 3PDs, is actually heavily loaded in MS' favour.
Aside from a few 3PDs bringing their own products to improve the vanilla experience, and therefore boost MSFS sales, there will not be the same level of gaps that 'need' filling as with previous sims.

I'm a fan of 3PDs and regularly buy add-ons to improve my sim experience, but there needs to be some realism as to where they stand with MSFS. Those that don't, won't be around a year after MSFS' release - that's just how business works.
 

This is the best post I have read in this thread. This is spot on. The new people trying out the "free" game on their xbox gamepass could be a goldmine for 3PDs creating for MSFS. What are good sales right now? Few tens of thousand copies. Imagine having a market of p3d/xplane users who switchover and a small fraction of the millions of people in the xbox gaming community to sell your wares to.

Edited January 25, 20206 yr by sanh

9 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Agree, but you seem to suggest MFS is the only one moving forward? 

LM and LR are moving forward also but they just aren't public about it and don't have massive marketing budgets.  Personally I don't see how MFS would ever catch-up to other platforms that continue to progress and retain considerable compatibility as products and SDK's evolve ... LR already announced new weather engine, can't discuss LM.

Maybe MFS does NEED developers to stop making content for these other platforms and I'm not going to get into the politics of that manipulation, maybe some have taken the bait?  But without content providers MFS isn't going anywhere meaningful for me ... 3rd party content is essential to MFS success, not the other way around ... 1000+ devs/artists with 10+ year head start vs. 200 dev/artists at MFS.

Cheers, Rob.

 

No wasnt suggesting they are the only one moving forward.  Personally , I dont see LM involving the general public/hobbyists/general students much anymore. We were never the intended audience, and still arent, but they still embraced the community and developers for the time being.  Version 5 which Im sure will come out at some point could very well focus only on corporate and commercial customers and require the evidence for purchase given whats on the horizon at MS.

I cant speak much to LR, but it is such a slow development process on that side, and seemingly only what their dev team wants and not the communities wants, that the attraction opportunity for the masses has slipped.  Dont count them out, they will move forward, but with MSFS and all the new tech being exhibited to such a high fidelity, how do they keep up to such a much larger dev team and financial resources?  Competition is good, so maybe they have something to show for it up their sleeve. 

Guess alot of the answers to your doubts would be provided in the upcoming SDK released in the next Alpha, and from all the interviews and release notes, they are fully on board with having all kinds of 3rd party content. PMDG doesnt make an announcement to support it on a whim.  Clearly they know more than all of us about the extent of support MS will give them for 3rd party content and presumably everyone else. 

 

This topic will be an interesting read 3-4 months into MSFS. Might add to my Fav's to come back to then.

13 hours ago, F737NG said:

Waaaaay to much negativity in this thread from people who should know better.

 

Agreed.

1/ Comparison with a disappointing  FSX release in 2006 doesn't make sense to me.

Contrary to FSX, FS20 early builds has already been tested by users at the Seattle and London events and, of course, by the alpha 1 testers. No other simulator has been tested so early by so many people of various nationalities (i.e. with different mindsets).These are not the poor Avsim user like me, stupid enough to be fooled by the shiny baubles of Phil Spencer's "cunning" marketing (Listen Lionel, I have a cunning plan). Real players and pilots. I don't recall one negative comment or even innuendo so far. Weirdly enough the only innuendoes I read came from people who have not put their hands on the prealpha and alpha : won't be ready before 2022, expect plenty of flaws at release, won't work without plenty of addons and so on and so forth. Go figure.

FSX was incremental over FS9, FS20 is a new animal. This is also a new team with another culture, another vision and with the experience of recently releasing a very successful game (not sim related). Does that mean everything is going to be peach perfect ? I see things for which I've my doubt and the landscapes and aircraft we see are anyway still limited in scope. We need to know more to be sure.  But difficult not to be impressed so far. Difficult not to look forward to it. Difficult to understand that some expect a flop (in 2022 😂).

A  fully loaded P3D is extremely nice, even 3.3 that I still use. Excellent aircraft and sceneries, good utilities (weather etc.). Browsing the screenshots I kept over the  years, I remember a lot of fun with all these flights. A great sim altogether . But I suspect that a few weeks after FS20 release, my P3D will be off my SSD. Like FSX was off in a week after I tasted P3Dv2. 

2/ Recent addon P3D releases don't prove anything about the addon market of today.

 We see now the release of projects started most certainly before the E3 announcement,  that the developers are in a hurry to finish up and release before FS20 entry into the market. PMDG astute release is a case in point. As is Orbx OLC Africa, sub-contracted to an Ukrainian (I think !) outfit.  Interesting to see that Africa which was already worked on in June last (JV said it was 75% finished) will be released and not Asia which they would have to start from scratch.  

Lockheed Martin has chosen not to inform the community about v5 which is said to be in beta. Their choice, I'd rather have MS/Asobo's openness to be honest. Commenting on the perspective of the v5 related market is thus impossible. We'll see. I have always said to be glad to see a major aerospace company like LM in the PC sim market but they really have to try harder than releasing a v5 which would be a v4.5+  :  FDE architecture, weather, air dynamics, sceneries. Hopefully they have shed the old Aces mentality of marginal improvement. Wait & See.

 

Edited January 25, 20206 yr by domkle

I think it's best to enjoy the sim you have, buy the add ons you want and enjoy it. I still get hours of enjoyment from FSX and recently started dabling in X-Plane 11 too. Who knows what the future will bring. Just seems silly to me holding off enjoyment you can have today

 

I don't think it is the developers that have stopped developing but the simmers who have stopped purchasing.  The "wait-n-see" attitude.  Without customers buying their wares many small developers will fade away.  Just an observation and from what I have read.

I respectfully disagree with the premise.  This isn’t comprehensive so forgive me if I’ve forgotten some, but since the 2020 announcement, we’ve seen Milviz, PMDG, Aerosoft and FSL release new airplanes.  We’ve also seen plenty of developers continue enhancements to existing products, including the Leonardo Maddog which had an update just a few weeks ago, the Majestic Q400 which saw an update also a few weeks ago, the FSW Falcon 50 has a new update in beta right now (and I’m sure many more).  Sceneries continue to come online.  Orbx has released more than 5 products in the last couple months, Basel was released twice this month.  Milviz, TFDI and FSW have all announced active/next projects for P3D with, as far as I’ve seen, no suggestion they won’t be completed for the current platform.

With that said, it wouldn’t make sense to me to start a totally new “from the ground up” development project right now (Q1 of 2020) because we’re expecting a P3D version upgrade and the release of MSFS 2020 this year.  I’d want to (need to) see SDKs on either front before I embarked on a new project that would be expected to launch into one or both of those platforms.

In the meantime, it is clear that sales are down because we’re hearing that directly from the developers.  Exhibit A is the note from Mir at FlightBeam who, on November 15 said on the Flightbeam website:

Quote

“As a thank you to customers who are continuing to purchase from us and support our efforts after all the MS2020 updates, I’m significantly raising the Flightbeam points earned per purchase. While the new sim is very exciting and we’re planning on developing for it, surviving as a tiny shop until release is proving very difficult. My heartfelt thanks to customers who have continued to purchase and support us and keeping us alive.” (https://www.flightbeam.net/a-thank-you-to-those-who-are-continuing-to-support-us/)

I don’t expect devs to build products for me out of the goodness of their hearts – that’s what freeware is for.  Rather, I expect them to build products that have a market and the market has obviously spoken to Flightbeam with a reduction in sales as a result of the MSFS2020 announcement.  It might be a tough couple of months for some devs, but such is the case in almost any business – I expect these tough few months will be followed by a boom.  There is absolutely no reason to believe that there won’t be a huge market for add-ons in the new and/or updated sims.  After all, when has the flight sim community EVER felt that we were finished?  That it was good enough?  That we didn’t want something new or better or more realistic or more immersive?  Never.  In the meantime, if you're worried about devs not surviving the transition, do something about it - spend some money! 🤑

I guess I just don’t really see the problem.  There are thousands of dollars (tens of thousands?) of amazing add-ons available today – I bought a couple hundred worth over the holidays as is my usual tradition and I’m thoroughly enjoying them now while ALSO thoroughly enjoying the MSFS2020 videos and screenshots.  I’m not mad about any of it. It doesn’t make me angry.  I’m excited. I love what I have today, I will continue to buy things that will add to my enjoyment and presume that at some point I’ll get my hands on MSFS2020 and start buying for that platform.  This, to me, is no different than the hundreds of dollars of add-ons I bought for FSX and pre-P3D4 and earlier that don’t work anymore.  It is just progress.  Software is like any other product.  It depreciates over time and is replaced by new.  It is not an investment.  It is entertainment.

When devs have an SDK for MSFS2020 and/or the next version of P3D, they will make a decision on how to proceed.  They will make decisions based on interest, skills and the market.  The good news is that these things will happen soon.  Moreover, the mainstream marketing efforts of MSFS2020 that are more reflective of the broad gaming industry (which is gigantic) will almost certainly bring many new customers (and their wallets) to this space, affording developers new opportunities to take on even more ambitious projects.  I’m just excited for the space and can’t wait to see what all of the talented devs in our community produce for us next.  I’m confident that next holiday season I’ll be buying myself add-ons that I never even knew I needed.  Happy 2020!

1 hour ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I see more casual user in P3D and XP checking out MFS

That's funny, because from what we've seen so far, MSFS is likely going to have more accurate flight dynamics out of the box than P3D. There's nothing we've heard to this point that gives credence to the idea that MSFS is going to be worse for "serious" simmers vs. P3D or XP, so this seems more like a passive-aggressive swipe at people who are excited for MSFS. When people talk about the lack of communication from LM, it's not about the forum posts, but about the lack of insight into what they might be planning. Presumably you're testing V5 right now, but for those of us on the outside, we just see a stagnating platform.