This thread came at an interesting time for me.  I got back into this because of MSFS 2020 but then quickly moved to XP, and I've been using P3D since April -- mostly because I really wanted the FS Labs A320.  Since then I've gotten the PMDG 737 NGXu, and I just joined a virtual airline.  I'm also drawn to options like the Maddog, PMDG 777 and 747, QW 787 and Majestic Dash 8.  I can't help but feel like the VA and Vatsim environment combined with MSFS 2020 may not really mature for another 12-18 months, even with PMDG close to releasing its Boeing collection for MSFS. 

Yet, it's hard to decide where to expend my efforts and $. I have MSFS 2020 and I love the look and promise of it . . . but I'm nevertheless considering going all-in on P3D.  Ughh.  Thoughts welcomed.  

Windows 10 will be "the last Windows".

For me P3D has a huge library of great add-ons that enhance the overall sim experience, have decent quality and the accuracy of the flight sim aircraft models is pretty darn good.

From a performance perspective, V5 has been the best version so far for me although P3Dv4.5 was pretty stable as well, but something changed in v5 for the better in terms of smoothness and the visuals.

 

What am I really looking forward to:

• PMDG 747 with the nav updates.
• TFDI MD-11 in P3D!
• EA truly working with weather add-ons
• Water engine and reflections better implemented 
• Better multi-threaded support for P3D (OK that's a wish)
• Improved default ATC (another wish)

 

BTW: I dont think you can compare the sims to be honest based on their comparative stages of development. MSFS is still in its infancy from a development perspective overall so its expected to have its teething problems but I am sure MS/Asobo will continue to iron out its wrinkles and make it enjoyable for the majority of users.

For P3D its pretty mature already based on 5 major versions of the product and numerous sub-versions released plus the thousand of add-ons that already exist in the market, so counting the latest sim news articles is not a true indication of growing/waning market.

 

Overall, for me, its pretty much start P3D and fly realistic flight plans and procedures. I have done more flying hours in P3D than any other sim without having to tweak the $%&/ out of it.

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Think MSFS visuals + P3D core simulation SDK/PDK depth.  The ESP Microsoft created many years ago along with the changes LM have made over the past 8 years still has a market.  Many P3D users aren't aware the entered graphics render engine can be replaced while still using the P3D core ... this functionality has been around for a while.

This is very interesting, thanks for highlighting. Its especially useful for the home cockpit market built around FSX/ESP/P3D, surprised a product is not out to market yet. The question is how easy it this to implement ? 

We can look forward to LM continuing to advance the product, improving things like EA, and adding new features they think their core market will want and value. I have no doubt of that. But I don't think we can look forward to 3rd party developers filling the gap between the capabilities that LM adds and a complete usable implementation any longer. I'm not sure LM will, or can, step up to do that themselves, because P3D has always been a platform rather than a complete experience for them. 

MSFS has killed, or at least mortally wounded, the add-on market for P3D. There's no question about that. Some developers have come out and said as much, others say they intend to continue supporting P3D but that there are no new products in development, which is basically the same thing. Some are abandoning their P3D projects in progress or going MSFS-first with P3D later if at all (and probably never). Only a very few developers who basically can't port their stuff to MSFS are still P3D-first (HiFi, for example). The potential MSFS market is not 25 million people, nowhere near, but it's definitely in the millions, and even if only 10% of those buy add-ons, that's still bigger than the P3D audience.

So OK, we can keep on using P3D with our existing add-ons. But what I worry about is that every time LM updates the sim, many add-ons need to be updated in order to work. If developers stop updating their P3D products - and I think they will - then over time, fewer and fewer add-ons will work with newer versions of the sim. So our choice will be to stick with down-level versions of P3D long-term - and we're already seeing that with the P3Dv5 refuseniks - or to accept a gradually dwindling pool of add-ons.

I'm a flight simmer. I'm not a gamer. I'm also a cockpit-builder, who has relatively 'advanced' needs from the sim. MSFS cannot support me right now, and even if all the features I would need get added to it, I would be foolish to make a product with mandatory and non-pausable updates the core of a sim that I've spent many £1000s on. That would be foolish. But what are my choices? A platform that, for non-commercial users like me, is moribund, or X-Plane, which seems healthier right now but does not have a clear future either. 

(BTW, to Rob's point, there may be an option to have P3D as the sim engine and MSFS as a view engine - in fact, Wideview 2020 supports that right now, albeit experimentally. That may ultimately be a direction I have to consider going in.)

As it stands, we will end up with another Microsoft monoculture, and as others have quite rightly pointed out, eventually they will pull the plug, and when they do, I doubt there will be an LM waiting in the wings to take over a product that requires a massive cloud-scale server infrastructure to operate. 

Sorry if that sounds negative, but it's how I feel. 

 

Edited August 3, 20214 yr by neilhewitt
Clarity

7 minutes ago, neilhewitt said:

We can look forward to LM continuing to advance the product, improving things like EA, and adding new features they think their core market will want and value. I have no doubt of that. But I don't think we can look forward to 3rd party developers filling the gap between the capabilities that LM adds and a complete usable implementation any longer. I'm not sure LM will, or can, step up to do that themselves, because P3D has always been a platform rather than a complete experience for them. 

MSFS has killed, or at least mortally wounded, the add-on market for P3D. There's no question about that. Some developers have come out and said as much, others say they intend to continue supporting P3D but that there are no new products in development, which is basically the same thing. Some are abandoning their P3D projects in progress or going MSFS-first with P3D later if at all (and probably never). Only a very few developers who basically can't port their stuff to MSFS are still P3D-first (HiFi, for example). The potential MSFS market is not 25 million people, nowhere near, but it's definitely in the millions, and even if only 10% of those buy add-ons, that's still bigger than the P3D audience.

So OK, we can keep on using P3D with our existing add-ons. But what I worry about is that every time LM updates the sim, many add-ons need to be updated in order to work. If developers stop updating their P3D products - and I think they will - then over time, fewer and fewer add-ons will work with newer versions of the sim. So our choice will be to stick with down-level versions of P3D long-term - and we're already seeing that with the P3Dv5 refuseniks - or to accept a gradually dwindling pool of add-ons.

I'm a flight simmer. I'm not a gamer. I'm also a cockpit-builder, who has relatively 'advanced' needs from the sim. MSFS cannot support me right now, and even if all the features I would need get added to it, I would be loathe to make a product that I have no choice about updating the core of a sim that I've spent many £1000s on. That would be foolish. But what are my choices? A platform that, for non-commercial users like me, is moribund, or X-Plane, which seems healthier right now but does not have a clear future either. 

(BTW, to Rob's point, there may be an option to have P3D as the sim engine and MSFS as a view engine - in fact, Wideview 2020 supports that right now, albeit experimentally. That may ultimately be a direction I have to consider going in.)

As it stands, we will end up with another Microsoft monoculture, and as others have quite rightly pointed out, eventually they will pull the plug, and when they do, I doubt there will be an LM waiting in the wings to take over a product that requires a massive cloud-scale server infrastructure to operate. 

Sorry if that sounds negative, but it's how I feel. 

 

X-Plane has lasted a long time.  That may remain the go-to alternative for some simmers.  Interesting point about the Microsoft monoculture as well.  

Still has me scratching my head on getting more P3D products vs investing in MSFS in the near-term.  However, I guess the bottom line is that MSFS is the long-term option.  Realistically, once PMDG, Leonardo, QW, Majestic (and maybe FSL) come to MSFS, they aren't going to put their primary resources into P3D.  And I don't have a full-blown cockpit, so I'm not so impacted by the changes.

I'm looking forward to Flytampa EHAM and LGKR and maybe Flightbeam LFBO. 

Besides that, not really in need of something new. My P3D looks as good as never before, is rock solid (no CTD since ages) and the weather depiction is just perfect. 

Since months I still find new challenges with my FSL home cockpit on a daily basis and that won't stop anytime soon. 

No need at all searching something new or better, and no need to look elsewhere. 

Edited August 3, 20214 yr by mikealpha

27 minutes ago, neilhewitt said:

If developers stop updating their P3D products - and I think they will - then over time, fewer and fewer add-ons will work with newer versions of the sim. So our choice will be to stick with down-level versions of P3D long-term

Actually, that prospect doesn't sound THAT bad to me. No more spending time updating and testing, and more time flying! And it's not like the sim has to be static, there are still hundreds of interesting add-ons out there that I don't have...

Oh, I'm really looking forward to openLC Asia.

5 minutes ago, d.tsakiris said:

Actually, that prospect doesn't sound THAT bad to me. No more spending time updating and testing, and more time flying! And it's not like the sim has to be static, there are still hundreds of interesting add-ons out there that I don't have...

Oh, I'm really looking forward to openLC Asia.

Sure... but I want to keep updating my sim to get the new goodies LM gives us. Imagine a version of EA that actually works 🙂

True, but there will always be something worth correcting or improving. Gotta draw the line somewhere 🙂 But maybe we're not quite there yet...

What I was hoping to see on Flight 1’s website is Ultimate Terrain X for Asia. It never appeared. I have Europe, North America and Central America / Caribbean.

What these addons give me in addition to FTX Global and FS Global Ultimate is a very accurate depiction of those land masses. Accurate coastlines and rivers plus ground textures. FSGU finishes things off nicely with detailed mountains.

I’ve disabled the Airport layer for each as the data is so old. But the rest is great and can be recommended.

And each time I fly in a new part of the world I’m not downloading gigabytes of data that becomes worthless if it’s cloudy.

Oh, and finally, AIG Ai. Over 900 liveries plus lots of private jets for just about every airport in the world. Ai brings airports to life - even default ones - and is an ongoing project made by enthusiasts for enthusiasts.

4 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

made by enthusiasts for enthusiasts

Which is what worked so well for the X-Plane community and I guess could become the prime model for P3D too. I should stop complaining and build some add-ons!

19 minutes ago, neilhewitt said:

Which is what worked so well for the X-Plane community and I guess could become the prime model for P3D too. I should stop complaining and build some add-ons!

My skills in that area are zero so if you have them - use them. 😉

1 minute ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

My skills in that area are zero so if you have them - use them. 😉

Technically I already am - I've been building a tool for a few months, but it's just to scratch my own particular itch. It synchronises LVARs and FSUIPC Offsets across multiple instances of P3D in a multi-channel network. It may or may not become a real product eventually, but just open-source. There's little to no market for something so situation-specific.

TBH I don't see myself ever doing aircraft or scenery, the skillset is rather beyond my traditional one, but utilities I can do. 

 

5 hours ago, Iadbound said:

This thread came at an interesting time for me.  I got back into this because of MSFS 2020 but then quickly moved to XP, and I've been using P3D since April -- mostly because I really wanted the FS Labs A320.  Since then I've gotten the PMDG 737 NGXu, and I just joined a virtual airline.  I'm also drawn to options like the Maddog, PMDG 777 and 747, QW 787 and Majestic Dash 8.  I can't help but feel like the VA and Vatsim environment combined with MSFS 2020 may not really mature for another 12-18 months, even with PMDG close to releasing its Boeing collection for MSFS. 

Yet, it's hard to decide where to expend my efforts and $. I have MSFS 2020 and I love the look and promise of it . . . but I'm nevertheless considering going all-in on P3D.  Ughh.  Thoughts welcomed.  

IMHO you wont be unhappy with the QW 787.  Great value too!