Future of p3d ?

[out 769]

22 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

a better ATC wouldn’t go amiss. Sadly, I don’t expect either to change.

The Holy Grail of flight simulation. Discussing it further will always lead to VATSIM (I loved it when I used it).
After all these years I am 90% positive there will never be a good artificial ATC for home simming.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,970]

3 minutes ago, Rafal said:

The Holy Grail of flight simulation. Discussing it further will always lead to VATSIM (I loved it when I used it).
After all these years I am 90% positive there will never be a good artificial ATC for home simming.

So when the front doorbell goes and you’re alone in the house how does that work? Or you need a toilet break? Or you need to make a drink? VATSIM might offer greater realism but you’re really tied to the computer. That’s no good for me.

Radar Contact won an AvSim award in 2006. I don’t believe another ATC program has since then. I rest my case.

[psolk 3,042]

7 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

So when the front doorbell goes and you’re alone in the house how does that work? Or you need a toilet break? Or you need to make a drink? VATSIM might offer greater realism but you’re really tied to the computer. That’s no good for me.

Radar Contact won an AvSim award in 2006. I don’t believe another ATC program has since then. I rest my case.

I actually have both and prefer PF3...  Not to mention PF3 is still being actively developed in 2021.  It's a bit of a lift in pre-flight but the regionalized voices, taxi guidance, designated parking control, SID/STAR designation, ongoing support and support for multiple sim platforms puts it above RC3 from my perspective.  I use it on every P3D flight. 

Winning an award in 2006 isn't much of a case in 2021 😉    Lots of good products haven't won Avsim awards. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by psolk

[Ray Proudfoot 8,970]

3 minutes ago, psolk said:

I actually have both and prefer PF3...  Not to mention PF3 is still being actively developed in 2021.  It's a bit of a lift in pre-flight but the regionalized voices, taxi guidance, designated parking control, SID/STAR designation, ongoing support and support for multiple sim platforms puts it above RC3 from my perspective.  I use it on every P3D flight. 

Does it interact with Ai or only you? Key commands or voice only?

7 minutes ago, psolk said:

Winning an award in 2006 isn't much of a case in 2021 😉    Lots of good products haven't won Avsim awards

Has PF3 won any awards? Have any ATC programs won awards in the last 10 years?

I disagree. It shows how difficult ATC programs are to write which is why there so few. And surely if a program can still run 15 years after release it is testament to its design.

[spilok 1,136]

10 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

In the end it`s still the same use the sim that suit your choice but don`t dump on other sims, If only one survives then you have no choice bad for the sim community. 

What a GREAT point you've made here!

[out 769]

23 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

So when the front doorbell goes and you’re alone in the house how does that work? Or you need a toilet break? Or you need to make a drink?

Since you ask, Ray, no, you don't have to stay in your armchair non stop. You can make a mug of coffee, use the toilet, or let the above mentioned (doorbell ringing) mistress into your house.
I would compare it to fying in a real cockpit. We want to recreate realism in our sims, and we decide on how much is too much. Even RW pilots use the toilet.
You can ask a controller to leave the sim for a moment or even half an hour if necessary and usually it is not a problem. If the problem turns out to be more serious, you can disconnect, but that seems obvious anyway.
I don't fly VATSIM any more (still hope to return) but I only once ever had a problem, however it was 100% my fault as I was doing an overnight long haul and... fell asleep (yes, I was disconnected from the network)! 🤭

[psolk 3,042]

21 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Does it interact with Ai or only you? Key commands or voice only?

Has PF3 won any awards? Have any ATC programs won awards in the last 10 years?

I disagree. It shows how difficult ATC programs are to write which is why there so few. And surely if a program can still run 15 years after release it is testament to its design.

Both.  It interacts with AI and also has ground avoidance procedures to try and keep them from taxiing into you, runway excursions etc.  It will ask you to hold for landing/departing traffic before granting clearance to cross the runway.  PF3 does have voice interaction but I've always used it via button control. 

To be honest after Pushback clearance I change from me controlling comms to my PF3 Virtual co-pilot handling comms so I can fly and it's all automated.  Full Oceanic procedures, step climbs, en-route deviations and emergencies, asking to avoid turbulence at certain FL's all supported plus it's pretty cool to hear controllers using localized accents as well.  

It also has taxi guidance via a gauge or via voice directions from you co-pilot.  

If you use Flight Deck Companion the two also interact together.   

No idea on awards, that's kind of irrelevant to me personally in 2021, flightsim awards have never meant much to me, its just someone's opinion, especially an award from 15 years ago.  

[Ray Proudfoot 8,970]

@Rafal, I did try VATSIM many years ago in the day’s of dial-up. The connection was poor and it dropped out as I was on final to Heathrow. The controller advised he had to instruct a few behind me to go-around. Never touched it again. 😁

It seems fine for short flights but not long haul as you pointed out. And it’s always a lottery if there’s a controller at your destination especially if you choose the less popular ones. RC4 always gives you vectors whatever the time of day or destination.

Ultimately, it’s a free choice to go with what best suits you.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,970]

@psolk, if I wasn’t so attached to RC4 I’d be tempted to try it. But having stayed with it for so long a switch would be very hard.

I take it you can run it over a network? Done that with RC4 for ages. 

[psolk 3,042]

Just now, Ray Proudfoot said:

@psolk, if I wasn’t so attached to RC4 I’d be tempted to try it. But having stayed with it for so long a switch would be very hard.

I take it you can run it over a network? Done that with RC4 for ages. 

I TOTALLY understand that Ray! 

Yep, network connection supported, it even has a remote text box so you can move all your AI communication text to the networked machine.  I run ActiveSKY, Pac-X and PF3 on a laptop over wide-fs...  Thank you Pete D! 

[IanHarrison 522]

5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@psolk, if I wasn’t so attached to RC4 I’d be tempted to try it. But having stayed with it for so long a switch would be very hard.

I take it you can run it over a network? Done that with RC4 for ages. 

One very important point not yet mentioned. PF costs 35 GBP. That is a serious amount of cash. I shall, like Ray, be sticking with the free RC4.

[abrams_tank 7,426]

10 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Microsoft are restricting some third party developers to the inner workings of MSFS for reasons I cannot understand. They seem to want to control far more than was suggested when it first appeared and they welcomed outside developers. Compare that to P3D which is very open despite the lack of communication from LM.

I think Microsoft/Asobo want to do a lot of stuff in MSFS though, so we don't have to buy add-ons.  Take the weather for example.  Yes, Microsoft/Asobo did not fully open the SDK for weather modification (but some of the SDK is open for weather modification, as Rex Weather Force for MSFS demonstrates). Microsoft/Asobo have already said they want to do a revamp and overhaul of the weather and it's planned for the end of 2022, or in 2023 I think.  Now they could open up the SDK further for weather, but if they plan to overhaul it anyways, there are other areas that they can better spend their resources.

Microsoft/Asobo are continually expanding the SDK (the SDK still needs a lot of work, but it has made a lot of progress, just look at the DC6 release).  Having said that, Microsoft/Asobo have a lot of plans for MSFS, such as the weather overhaul, so I can understand if they don't want to waste resources on the part of the SDK that they eventually plan to overhaul and improve.

And unlike LM, Microsoft/Asobo have been very open with their communication and have listened to the community.  The community complained heavily after SU5 about the pop-ins when panning and asked for a slider to control it.  Microsoft/Asobo promptly implemented that slider about a month later in the next update and the community was very happy about that.  The community complained about the ground handling of aircraft and Microsoft/Asobo then made some changes to the ground handling, and more changes on ground handling are coming in the future.  The community complained about the G1000 and how it lacked functionality - what was Microsoft's response? They went out to hire Working Title to fix the G1000!

I would say, Microsoft/Asobo have been listening to the community pretty well and have been changing MSFS mostly according to what the community wants.

Edited November 16, 2021 by abrams_tank

[kevinfirth 1,396]

9 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

So when the front doorbell goes and you’re alone in the house how does that work? Or you need a toilet break? Or you need to make a drink? VATSIM might offer greater realism but you’re really tied to the computer. That’s no good for me.

Radar Contact won an AvSim award in 2006. I don’t believe another ATC program has since then. I rest my case.

1. Vatsim only ties you to your PC where there is coverage.  I tried it years ago and when it was manned, (or is that personned nowadays? 😛), it was great, but the coverage was almost nonexistent for complete flights or those I wished to fly.  So I went in another direction.

2. Avsim isn't the only reviewer in town, and 2006 was a long time ago Ray.  eg: VoxATC 6 Review (mutleyshangar.com) Mutley's Hangar score of 10/10 and the Mutley's Hangar Award for Excellence!

Have you tried other ATC apps?  My preference is for VoxATC, (no it's not cheap I know), because it covers both IFR and VFR, is CAP413 (CAP 413: Radiotelephony Manual (caa.co.uk)) compliant in the UK, different phraseology in different parts of the world, you can add VFR reporting points, and voices, it uses voice recognition, so you communicate realistically instead of needing to interact using menus on screen, you can train its speech recognition for specific terminology, it delivers end to end region accurate coverage, and by no means least, it controls AI in the sim, meaning that AI a/c actually fly how you hear them being controlled.  That is now being extended in current development to include holding patterns etc and more.

ATC is an exceptionally difficult thing to simulate, and there's no better evidence for that that very few people have attempted it.  Not even MS in the past, MS/Asobo now, or LM have come anywhere near to good ATC in the base platforms. 

• LM's approach has historically been to deliver the functionality and let 3PDs leverage it into addon products.  That strategy may need to be revisited given the current market, IMHO, but that's LM's decision.
• I don't think that better ATC is a significant market driver for improvements on the MSFS front, given its entertainment orientation and hardware platform base.
• XP I have no experience with at all I'm afraid.    

The long and short of it is I wouldn't hold out for significant ATC improvements in any base sim platform.  ATC for me is a central part of flying, the age old maxim of "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is still applicable 🙂   For anyone who agrees, I'd recommend they use an ATC add-on, just research what is available and choose what suits your flying needs and budget.  

Edited November 16, 2021 by kevinfirth

[Ray Proudfoot 8,970]

8 hours ago, psolk said:

I TOTALLY understand that Ray! 

Yep, network connection supported, it even has a remote text box so you can move all your AI communication text to the networked machine.  I run ActiveSKY, Pac-X and PF3 on a laptop over wide-fs...  Thank you Pete D! 

Thanks. Sounds like you’re using ShowText which is what I use for RC4.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,970]

7 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Have you tried other ATC apps?  My preference is for VoxATC, (no it's not cheap I know), because it covers both IFR and VFR, is CAP413 (CAP 413:

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Kevin and apologies for my brief reply. Not personally but I experienced Pro-ATC-X several years ago on a friend’s system and wasn’t impressed. It may have improved since but given I’m happy with RC4 I haven’t really investigated. If you’re happy with your wife you don’t look for a new one do you? 😉